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Israel, Hamaza, and the Fatah Bank: A Three State Solution? |
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At least for now, it seems Palestine has split into two separate sections following Hamas’s successful overthrow of Fatah in in Gaza. Instead of a coalition government, based around Hamas and Fatah sharing power, we now have two completely separate governments, with Mahmoud Abbas, Palestine’s President and Fatah leader, declaring a new secular emergency government in the West Bank.
The international community’s response to Fatah’s move has been overwhelmingly positive. President Bush has offered to replace any arms surrendered to Hamas, the US is planning to lift its embargo of Palestine, and most strikingly, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel has talked about resuming peace talks, giving Fatah the taxes Israel stopped paying to Palestine when Hamas was elected to power, and even paying some kind of reparations to Palestinian refugees, acknowledging for the first time the “suffering of the Palestinians that has taken place over many years as part of the conflict between us and them.”
For the time being at least, it seems we will be dealing with three separate entities in the Israel/Palestine area, Fatah in the West Bank, Hamas in Gaza, and Israel between them. The situation certainly adds a layer of complexity to the already intractable issue, but the flurry of activity in the last few days has opened up some new doors that may show the world the way out of this conflict.
The current situation is positive in the sense that Hamas is now somewhat out of the picture. After the relative progress of the 90’s, the election of Hamas, a terrorist group that doesn’t recognized Israel’s right to exist, threw a huge wrench into the peace process. Israel moved again to seal of Palestine, withheld taxes, and the international community withdrew its support, hoping to starve Hamas out of power. With Hamas now out of the government, the world is free to deal solely with Fatah in the West Bank, leaving Gaza as some sort of rouge state. I think Olmert and Israel realize that having a Palestine with Hamas in power is much more threatening than anything they have faced before. Therefore, they are willing to make concessions. If Israel acknowledges the mistakes they made in the past, offers restitution for Palestinian refugees, and helps build a Palestinian state, it may alleviate a lot of the tension in the region. While hardliners will never be satisfied until Israel ceases to exist, many Palestinian refugees may feel at least some sort of closure on the issue.
However, there is one big point of contention: We must keep in mind the fact that Hamas was elected to power. While Hamas’s actions are certainly a power grab, it isn’t a coup d’etat. Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people, and for good reason. They were’t put in power because they want the destruction of Israel, though I’m sure that didn’t hurt. They were put in power because Fatah is widely seen as corrupt and out of touch with the common Palestinian. As Gaza looters point out, “I saw dozens of the latest model cars and Mercedes [in Fatah compounds], while the people have nothing.” Hamas was elected on a populist platform, promising to raise the living standards of the Palestinian people through Muslim governance.
So, if the West chooses to deal strictly with Fatah, they are dealing with a government that has little legitimacy among the Palestinian people. Even if Abbas is able to win substantial concessions from Israel, I’m not sure the Palestinian people are willing to live under Fatah. So, I’m wondering what Seminal readers think about the current situation. Is a three state solution even possible? Do you think major concessions from Israel will be forthcoming? Can the West effectively work with Hamas and disarm them of their more radical rhetoric?
Fatah’s power in the West Bank may be short-lived. After all, it’s not like Hamas doesn’t have major support in the West Bank as well.
I agree. I think we’re backing the wrong horse here.
I wrote a post on this too. Even quoted you too. But it is simple there is not going to be peace because Hamas does not want peace. Sorry to say but that is the world we live in.
here’s my post:
http://straightouttadenver.com/?p=137
Hitler was democratically elected.
As commented on your blog, I agree with you Darth. Hamas really isn’t a good choice either, much like Fatah.
Well war is going to flare up again in Israel and it will probably this summer that it happens. But the Jews have been gearing up for it since the little war with Lebanon last summer and their in a much better position than last summer.
But also on a side note P Muse is in Israel right now and he is trying to get into Gaza. I still don’t know if he was able to make it in to Gaza but I ask any of your readers who are religious to please pray for his safety.
Hell, I don’t have to be religious. I hope he makes it back safely, and I hope he finds what he’s looking for over there. He’s a brave man to go over there right now, I look forward to reading about his journey.
I think Hamas should be seen more as a reaction to the situation than as agents pure and simple. People talk about Hamas as though the situation would be fundamentally different without them. The fact is, there are large numbers of unemployed, angry young men in Palestine who feel that they have their backs against the wall. Where do all the recruits come from? The willing suicide bombers? Why is even the leadership able to replace itself when major figures are assassinated? Hamas is not an accident or a fluke, they are a product of the situation. The only really surprising thing about them is how well-organized they are. So if you wiped Hamas off the face of the earth tomorrow you might not see another movement that was that well-organized, but you would see other movements emerging to fill its place. Hamas - and the emotions and the mentality it represents - will not go away until the basic, underlying conditions in Israel/Palestine are changed. Kind of like the Taliban, or the Viet Cong, or the Tamil Tigers. When people feel that they have their backs against the wall they will keep joining movements like that, and they will keep fighting.
Sure, and I think that is really the point many people miss when talking about solutions, whether it be three state, two state, or whatever. They are putting the cart before the horse in some sense, because they expect a political movement to come out of Palestine that is acceptable to Israel and the West BEFORE the humanitarian issues in Palestine are dealt with. In my mind, it works the other way. Make Palestine a better place to live by giving Palestinians an identity, restitution, and some kind of future, and then you will see the emergence of moderate voices with whom you can really work with.
Good article J-RO.
To all those saying we shouldnt recognise Hamas on the grounds that “Hitler was elected too” and so on :
Olmert is a war criminal , like Sharon and Begin before him - and he was elected too. He has repeatedly ordered the bombing and shelling of entire towns and refugee camps in both Lebanon and the occupied territories in the knowledge that he would kill civilians.
If you dont believe me check Amnesty International’s 2007 report which says that in 2006 “Israeli forces carried out frequent air and artillery bombardments against the Gaza Strip, often into densely populated refugee camps and residential areas. Some 650 Palestinians, half of them unarmed civilians and including some 120 children, were killed by Israeli forces.”
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/ Israel-and-the-Occupied-Territories
The South African Professor John Dugard, in his report in February this year as UN Special Rapporteur for the Middle East, condemned war crimes by Islamic Jihad against Israeli civilians along with Israeli military attacks on Palestinians in 2006 which were “grossly disproportionate and indiscriminate†involving “multiple war crimesâ€. Dugard also says “Israel’s laws and practices certainly resemble aspects of apartheid†due to blatant racial discrimination against Palestinians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6390755.stm
These kinds of war crimes have continued whatever party has been in office in Israel , so if you’re saying there’s no elected Palestinian government we can support due to their links to terrorism shouldnt you be , at the least, calling for an end to all US aid and arms sales to Israel’s government due to Israeli war crimes?
The current US government is also involved in war crimes and human rights abuses including torture.
So we’d also end up not being able to talk to anyone. Or we could stop pretending this is ‘goodies versus baddies’ and negotiate with the government Palestinians elected - or at the very least a Fatah-Hamas coalition of the kind put together to try to get sanctions lifted.
I think you’re absolutely right about needing to reduce Palestinians’ suffering before their politics will become more moderate too. There is no country on earth that would have moderate politics under military occupation while the majority of the population are in poverty or unemployed and occupying forces snipers routinely deliberately shoot children.
I think the only way forward is to negotiate with the existing Palestinian parties instead of forcing civil war through sanctions.
It worked with Sinn Feinn/IRA in Northern Ireland. One thing i have to give credit to Blair for is that he negotiated with Sinn Feinn and as a result the peace process in Northern Ireland succeeded.
The same thing is needed in Israel/Palestine.
Duncan !
Can the Israelites do anything right!
Yea right! the Palestinians are angels and Israel has snipers taking out little kids.
Be nice if you acknowledged some thing besides your hatred for Jews.
Do the math. Palestinians just cant get there shit together to save there life, literally ! to the point where they are killing each other. Is that Israels fault also ?
And then you refer to Amnesty international. Thats like sending Ronald Mcdonald to Mcdonalds.
Hold on micky, let’s be real here. The Palestinians are in no way blameless, but the Israelies have made some serious mistakes that they deserve to be held accountable for. (And as a Jew, I have no problem saying that.) Here’s the problem. Israel, right now, is in the position of power. They have powerful allies, lots of weapons, troops, and money, and they control the situation. It is exploitative for the people in power to tell those they subjugate, the Palestinians, to clean up their act first. Israel has the power to protect itself without turning Palestine into a prison. I feel it is wrong to expect perfect behavior from a people that has no options. Israel should clean up its act first, and that means stopping the settlements and allowing Palestine to become a country, before they should expect peace, not the other way around.
Yea but you know what . I dont see why Israel should always have to make concessions.
This shit has been going on since the 40s and the Israelites are surrounded by assholes that want them dead.
All these other Arab communitys should step up to the plate,especially the Saudis and give the palestinians a hand right now who are victims of two partys that cant really govern. The Israelites have just wanted this little peice of land that supposedly was givin to them so they would finally be able to settle down. And theyve been hounded ever since.
And they are trying . Olmert just today in good faith said he is releasing 250 Palestinian prisoners.
I’m sorry but I cant help but read into Duncans comment as to nothing more than anti semitism. And I’m not taking sides at all but it seems like he is. And gets his stats from leftist organizations , so what am I supposed to think ?
Hamas is a “terrorist organization “and hes trying to give them some kind of credibilty.
And Amnesty international forgot to mention that the Israeli air campaign was based on belief that armed combatents were in the area.
Lets have the facts both ways.
Lets mention where Hamas gets its money !
A Fatah and Hamas coalition ? Who wants to bet how long that will last ?
Well, because if they really want peace they will have to. And because they have the power to make concessions and keep their country, their security and their way of life. In short, it is the right thing to do. Especially when it concerns Israel, they should be held to standards or right and wrong, not some concept of fairness. Let’s admit mistakes: Israel did take a lot of land from a lot of people when they created their country and then expanded it. Those that were displaced deserve to be compensated, and Israel is in the position to do the right thing. I’ve got no vested interest in Israel, so I’m going to hold them to moral standards. And moral standards says they should do whatever they can to win the peace.
The same moral standards that Hamas uses?
Using children to fight there wars?
And like i said ,Olmert just released 250 Palestinians is a start. Israel just gave up Golan Heights after the last battle.
Theres all this Arab land in the Middle east . How come no other middle eastern country will help the Palestinians except for Iran funding Hamas.The same country that said Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth. If I were the Jews I wouldnt deal with these pricks at all, knowing what their wishes are.
If the palestinians elected a terrorist organization into office , they have to sleep in the bed they made.
Not to mention the Jewish settlements that were torn down a couple years ago by the Israelie govt. Thousands of Jews lost there homes due to a peaceful gesture on behalf of Israel.
I think right now theres one Jewish soldier the Israelis have been asking for the release of for a couple years.
Israel has made plenty enough concessions already.
And then they get shot at some more.
The palestinians half ass goverments in the past are their problem, not Israel
By the way, a three state solution { I think so}
would be the most promising approach in a long time.
But do you really think they wiil all shake hands and walk away after that? Thats the big question.
Gotta give all options a try ,right ?
But I wont hold my breath.
Micky wrote
If you scroll up and read my post I quote the UN special rapportuer saying both Islamic Jihad and Israeli forces committ war crimes against civilians.
Also , unless we’re back in Biblical times (which we’re not) they’re Israelis, not Israelites from thousands of years ago.
In other words their claim to the land they’re on comes not from the Bible or the Talmud but from the UN resolution establishing an Israeli and a Palestinian State on the legal/moral aspect – or else on military force.
If you base the claim on the Bible or the Talmud or other ancient history we’re all in big trouble because then Turkey would have a claim to the whole Middle East based on the Ottoman Empire and the Danes would have a claim to the English Danelaw.
If you base Israel’s claim on the legal/moral argument (as I do) then Israel is entitled to the land granted to it by the UN resolution , but not to all the land that resolution left for a Palestinian state which Israel is currently occupying or has annexed or the land its taking daily as more Palestinian houses are bulldozed to make way for more settlers in the West Bank – and as the barrier wall is built way east of the green line marking the borders as established by the UN.
If you base Israel’s claim to the land it holds on military force or right of conquest then you lose any moral right to criticise Hamas or Islamic Jihad or anyone else for attacks on Israelis. If force is legitimate then its legitimate for all sides to use as much force as they have. Israel was of course founded through terrorist campaigns against British and Palestinian soldiers and civilians. It then expanded through military force , like most states in the past ; and involved massacres to terrorise surviving Palestinians into leaving – i.e ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (as recorded by Israeli historians such as Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris) .
So while I don’t see force as legitimate or the right way to decide who has a right to what land it is a bit silly to say you can’t negotiate with Palestinian terrorist groups when half the Prime Ministers of Israel were formerly members of terrorist groups like the Stern Gang and the Irgun.
Micky wrote
Micky wrote
Ah the tired, feeble old “If you criticise the Israeli government and military you are a Jew hating anti-Semite†line.
There is a difference between criticising a government or military’s actions and hating all the people who live in a country or are of a particular religion.
I criticise my own government all the time and I’ve criticised the Scottish Executive plenty of times. By your “logic†that would mean I hate the British , the Scots and myself. I don’t. I agree with my government when I think its doing something right and criticise it when I think what its doing is completely wrong.
It would also mean that by the same ludicrous argument Jews like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein would be “self-hating Jewsâ€. Of course they’re not.
Ilan Pappe would be a “self-hating Israeliâ€.
If you actually believe in democracy in any way then there’s a right of free speech and a right to oppose your government’s policies. If you take away that right then it’s no longer a democracy and you end up in the mindless flag-waving nationalism of “my government always right and absolutely good /their enemies always wrong and absolutely evilâ€. This is when you get real bigotry and hatred of the kind that led to the holocaust and has allowed atrocities by almost every major military power in the world – including Israel as the strongest military power in the Middle East.
Micky wrote
Micky wrote
You seem to be upset that I’m quoting an independent unbiased source like Amnesty instead of the Israeli government or military - who, as one side of the conflict, are about as unbiased as Hamas or Islamic Jihad.
If you actually believe Amnesty is “leftist” you know nothing about them.
If you actually read Amnesty International’s reports and press releases on their web site - http://www.amnesty.org - you’d see they condemn human rights abuses by anyone - whether the Israeli government, the Palestinian Authority , Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad or any other.
If you still believe they’re “leftist” after that I can only assume you are so far to the right as to be , well , fascist in your views.
They didn’t forget anything of the kind.
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/ Israel-and-the-Occupied-Territories
You seem to be saying that if one side knows there are enemy fighters who carried out attacks on their side in a town or camp they have the right to bombard the entire town with whatever weapons they have.
That would mean both Israeli forces had the right to bombard whole towns and refugee camps with artillery , helicopters and tanks because they knew some enemy fighters who fired rockets were in that town or camp - even though they know they’ll kill more civilians than fighters by these methods.
It would also follow that Palestinians firing rockets into Israeli towns that they know contain some Israeli soldiers, on or off duty, would be justified on your argument in doing so in the hope of killing some of the Israeli forces who attacked and killed Palestinians (including civilians)- even though they know they’ll probably kill civilians in this way.
Amnesty says firing indiscriminately on whole towns or refugee camps is wrong because it kills civilians. I agree with them. Unless you are operating on a double standard where Israeli indiscriminate attacks are ok but Palestinian ones arent then why dont you agree with them?
Micky wrote
Again you are ignoring the entire history right up to the present in order to pretend that Palestinians are just crazy people.
Since the Israeli, US , Egyptian and EU governments refused to recognise the government Palestinians elected in elections which international observers agreed were free and fair – and used sanctions to try to force that government out of office while also arming and training Fatah militiamen to overthrow the elected Hamas government yes the Israeli, US, Egyptian and EU governments (including my own government in Britain) are to blame for engineering a coup to try to replace Hamas with Fatah by force. This resulted in civil war among Palestinians.
You can try to impress me and others with all the historical rederic you want.
What it boils down to is “today” and most recent occurances.
The Palestinians have been around just as long as the Jews. We could argue all the way back to Genesis and go back and forth ,yea you did this , but then they did that and on and on.
Point is , the Palestinians are either responsable for where they are at or they are going to blame Israel and others. Israel is a country that boasts a good economy and decades of more stability than Palestinian leaders have offerd there people. Palestine is hard up !, it has come to a point in history where they are being supported and funded by terrorist regimes. Iran which sends weapons and soldiers into Iraq is also funding Hamas’ And also has made it clear it wants to exterminate all of Israel.
This is the position Palestine has brought itself to by choosing to use this form of leadership and support.
So it brings me to the position that Palestine would more than gladly support the elimination of Israelies and Americans if Iran asked them to , since Iran is in control of the purse strings.
Israel is guilty of crimes in the past. But we can go as far as to say that war in itself is a crime , so spare me the war crimes crap. War is ugly. But when you use your own children in the line of fire you enter the realm of pure evil.
I’m dealing with the here and now.
You base an arguement on an ideology and theory and then start digging in history and selectivly pull from it what supports your beef, failing to ever expose anything that would contradict your opinion.And so you teach nothing.
My good man I am not stupid,though you may have your ducks in a row,they are all being fed by you.
In the “here and now” Israel has made repeated concessions to the Palestinians only to get screwed each time and they still havnt resorted to terror techniques, as much as it sems one would like to think they would.
I am quite capable of reading a mile long post and determining how that person leans and so I stand by my belief that you just dont like Jews or maybe even America.
How can anyone support or argue on behalf of a country being supported by another country that wants us and the Jews eliminated.
I believe the Palestinian and Israeli conflict will probably be the catalyst that could start a war like the world has never seen.
And if and when that happens I wont blame it on the Jews.
I find myself often being the only one on this website that has these confrontations and I enjoy it to certain extent, it is draining. Although it is better than hanging out all day long on other sites that do nothing but agree with each other and pat each other on the back.
Humbly enough I feel its my duty as an American to not let what I see as one side politically driven crap get out of hand and unchecked.
This is a great point, and one I agree with. If you are talking about who has the power to create peace, other Arab nations have the power to absorb the Palestinian refugees and take off some of the pressure. Hey, I believe the US and other Western countries should help out too! When Isreal was created, people were displaced just like water is displaced when you drop a rock in a pond. If a government believes Israel was right to displace those people and has a right to exist (as I do), then you need to be willing to deal with the consequences of that displacement. Those consequences are refugees, and every nation in the world should open their doors to them.
Now, you said:
This is the wrong way to look at things, in my view. We in effect gave the Palestinians no good options. Israel displaced a ton of people, yet didn’t help find them new homes with which they could be successful. Israel and Western powers have consistantly blocked a real Palestinian country from forming. Without a country or a passport, it is really hard to be productive members of a world society. Think about it. There are no jobs in Palestine. Movement is severely restricted. There is hardly any money coming in, and without a state, it is impossible to conduct meaningful trade with neighbors. Without any of the infrastructure a real country provides, how can we expect the Palestinians to become a real country, with productivity, an economy, etc…
If we give them nothing but bad choices, then it is double wrong to blame them when they take one of their bad choices. Hamas was not a good choice by the Palesitinians, objectively. But I really can’t blame them. Fatah is widely seen as corrupt, stealing money to line politician’s pockets while the people starve. The election was a largely local issue, voting out a corrupt government for one that is less so. Again, Hamas was a bad choice objectively, but the Palestinians had no good choices.
Israel, other Arab nations, and the West have the power to make things right. I don’t care about tit for tat, I don’t care about fairness. I want peace in the Middle East, and so that means Israel and the others will have to make many many many concessions. And you know what, I think that’s the right thing to do! It is wrong to expect perfect behavoir, or even fairness, from a group of people that is so oppressed. If they are not equals (and they are not, they have no country), then how can we hold them to equal standards?
Israel needs to withdraw to its original borders and pay restitution to refugees. The Arab and Western world needs to open their borders to these refugees to make a place for them to stay. Palestine needs to become a real country, and it doesn’t matter who is in charge. Once those things are done, and once Palestinians are on an equal footing with the rest of the world, then we can start talking about them making concessions.
I have no problem with fairness as you know. Everyone deserves their place in the sun. and I probably could stand to be more educated on all the fine details.
My big problem is with people that out of seperatism or whatever ism slant there findings and appear like bigots.
My beef was with Duncan and how most of his points favored the palestinians without looking close enough at Israels past and position. We will never get anywhere in this world if people and countrys dont get humble including the U.S.
Micky wrote (in comment 15)
Micky wrote (in Comment 20 )
So the 1940s are “today†and recent occurrences are they? One minute you try to refer to history (which you’ve clearly not bothered to read much of) , the next its “today and most recent occurrences†because you don’t want to deal with most of the facts or history because they contradict your ideological belief that Israel is always in the right.
If we judge everything on “today†and recent occurrences then the US must be in Afghanistan for NO REASON. I mean why are they there Micky? No, no ,no – no September 11th stuff – that was almost 6 years ago. It’s irrelevant history man.
Do you see how stupid it is to try to base everything on today and recent occurrences yet? We’d all be amnesiacs. So none of that “forget history†crap. That’s Pol Pot/Khmer Rouge stuff with today as “Year Zeroâ€.
It also does your argument no good to restrict it to recent events because the recent Palestinian civil war was a result of Israeli, US and EU sanctions and arming of Fatah to overthrow the elected Hamas government.
Israel Rejects Palestinians’ Unity Deal
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=8983689
Haaretz (Israel) 28 Dec 2006 , ‘Israeli defense official: Fatah arms transfer bolsters forces of peace’, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/806603.html
If that’s the case why can’t you give counter-examples or sources from history or the present that prove me wrong? Any internet links to mainstream newspapers or media or independent organisations that have proven themselves reliable? Or citations from books?
Maybe because you know very little about it and don’t want to know because you’re the one with an ideology and theory and you don’t want to know the facts because they contradict your ideological belief that Israel’s government is always in the right.
Micky wrote
On top of the very generous compensation the settlers in Gaza got when they left – an average of over $250,000 each http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4151742.stm
(something Palestinians never get when their houses are bulldozed – as they still are today) most of the settlers leaving Gaza also got new houses in the expanded settlements in the West Bank , taking land from Palestinians – and so did lots of other settlers and the Israeli government let them – and the Israeli army helped them –
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/41c30642-7fc1-11d9-8ceb-00000e2511c8.html
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.settlers11jan11,0, 152106.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/805829.html
In fact, as most analysts and Sharon’s adviser Dov Weinglass said, the withdrawal from Gaza (a small strip of desert) was to distract attention from the massive expansion of the settlements in the West Bank and the land grab carried out by placing the “security barrier†way East of the green line between Israeli and Palestinian states mandated by the UN – so as to illegally annexe lots of water supplies and farmland from Palestinians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3111159.stm
Israeli forces have repeatedly shelled and invaded and bombed Gaza since the settlements there ended.
(Also history again – I thought you wanted us to be amnesiacs and only deal with what happened in the last week.)
Micky wrote
The Israeli military refused to join a ceasefire held to by Hamas , Fatah and Islamic Jihad for over 6 months in the West Bank and Gaza – continually shelling towns, beaches and refugee camps in Gaza - and held Hamas and Fatah responsible for rocket attacks by splinter groups of Islamic Jihad, who neither Hamas nor Fatah can control . The rocket attacks injured several Israelis and altogether 27 Israeli soldiers and civilians were killed in 2006. Israeli random revenge bombardment with artillery and aircraft killed 650 Palestinians in 2006, half of them civilians , 120 children
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/world/middleeast/24cnd-mideast.html? ei=5088&en=da7d2cad0dd16f21&ex=1335067200&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagew anted=print
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/06/isrlpa13698.htm
http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/ Israel-and-the-Occupied-Territories
The truce was finally destroyed by sanctions and by attacks like the Israeli shelling of Gaza which killed an entire Palestinian family. Despite every other investigation – by Human Rights Watch, by Guardian journalists, by Channel 10 – finding they were killed by Israeli shelling the Israeli military persisted in a fairy story about Palestinian militants burying a mine on the beach - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_beach_blast#Channel_10_report
Micky wrote
Well according to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and the UN’s special rapporteur to the Middle East the Israeli government and military contain war criminals who indiscriminately killed and targeted civilians – Lebanese and Palestinian – last year – and every year before that since the foundation of Israel in 1948.
Israelis elected these war criminals. So by your logic Palestinians couldn’t negotiate with these war criminals either and peace will be impossible.
Your President cited Amnesty International reports and UN reports on human rights abuses , torture and killings by Saddam in 2002
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect4.html
So how is it that they were reliable then and on an enemy of the US but they’re not reliable now or on Israeli, British or American war crimes or torture just because it doesn’t suit you?
Your attempt to label organisations which have proven their impartiality and reliability over decades as “left wing†and biased is based purely on the fact that they don’t currently say what your ideology leads you to want to believe. You believe them when it suits you , disbelieve them when it doesn’t.
Also you might wish to note that most of the world (and indeed most Americans too now according to the polls) intensely dislike the Bush administration and many of them consider them war criminals. So would it be ok if we put sanctions on the US and started arming Americans to overthrow the war criminals that run your government ? If not (and certainly I’d be opposed to it if the EU decided to do anything of the kind) you have a case of double standards and ideological thinking on your part.
Micky wrote
The fact that Israel has an immensely stronger military than the Palestinians , gets tens of billions of dollars free money in foreign aid every year from the US (dwarfing the paltry few hundred million in aid given to Palestinians) and routinely uses advanced artillery , tanks and aircraft to shell and bomb Palestinian buildings and people (when its not bulldozing them) has something to do with this.
If Palestinians had all the tanks and jets and artillery (supplied by the US) , the tens of billions in aid a year (supplied by the US) and weren’t under constant attack and constant sanctions and checkpoints they would be as wealthy as Israelis are now.
Your (racist) theory seems to be that its because Palestinians are a backward people – the same (racist) theory used by colonists from the Scots and English in Ireland in the past to the Americans in India to justify killing people and stealing their land.
You seem to me to be deeply anti-Semitic in that you have racist views towards Palestinians and Arabs (semitic peoples - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic).
Micky wrote
You might have noticed a few war crimes, torture and some US troops sent into Iraq recently (not to mention the US support for terrorist groups like Jundullah who are carrying out attacks in Iran , behead prisoners on video and hold similar extreme Sunni beliefs to Al Qaeda - http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/04/abc_news_exclus.html
; and US military aid to the Colombian government which is involved with right wing paramilitary death squads – http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/04/18/colomb15735.htm
not surprising as half the current admin like Cheney and Abrams were the people who got US arms and training to the contra’s for terrorist attacks on civilians in Nicaragua, Honduras and El Salvador in the 80s )
Micky wrote
How exactly could Hamas or Iran ever exterminate Israel which has the fifth most powerful military in the World Micky? Israel has a larger and more advanced airforce than the EU (provided mainly through US handouts again).
It also has a nuclear arsenal of 200 to 500 nuclear missiles.
There is no way any other state could attempt to destroy Israel because they would be wiped of f the map by Israel’s nuclear arsenal, or by America’s. It can’t happen. It’s a myth. Saddam, when he did have chemical warheads for his scud missiles back in 1991 didn’t use them because he’d have been nuked if he had. Nor will the Iranians or Hamas.
Hamas also offered to recognise and negotiate with Israel if it stopped taking Palestinian land and withdrew to its 1967 borders, giving back Palestinians most of the West Bank (currently Palestinians have about 10% of the West Bank left). They offered a 10 or 15 year ceasefire that could have led to permanent peace if the Israeli government would agree.