Fatah’s power in the West Bank may be short-lived. After all, it’s not like Hamas doesn’t have major support in the West Bank as well.

I agree. I think we’re backing the wrong horse here.

I wrote a post on this too. Even quoted you too. But it is simple there is not going to be peace because Hamas does not want peace. Sorry to say but that is the world we live in.
here’s my post:
http://straightouttadenver.com/?p=137

Hitler was democratically elected.

As commented on your blog, I agree with you Darth. Hamas really isn’t a good choice either, much like Fatah.

Well war is going to flare up again in Israel and it will probably this summer that it happens. But the Jews have been gearing up for it since the little war with Lebanon last summer and their in a much better position than last summer.

But also on a side note P Muse is in Israel right now and he is trying to get into Gaza. I still don’t know if he was able to make it in to Gaza but I ask any of your readers who are religious to please pray for his safety.

Hell, I don’t have to be religious. I hope he makes it back safely, and I hope he finds what he’s looking for over there. He’s a brave man to go over there right now, I look forward to reading about his journey.

I think Hamas should be seen more as a reaction to the situation than as agents pure and simple. People talk about Hamas as though the situation would be fundamentally different without them. The fact is, there are large numbers of unemployed, angry young men in Palestine who feel that they have their backs against the wall. Where do all the recruits come from? The willing suicide bombers? Why is even the leadership able to replace itself when major figures are assassinated? Hamas is not an accident or a fluke, they are a product of the situation. The only really surprising thing about them is how well-organized they are. So if you wiped Hamas off the face of the earth tomorrow you might not see another movement that was that well-organized, but you would see other movements emerging to fill its place. Hamas - and the emotions and the mentality it represents - will not go away until the basic, underlying conditions in Israel/Palestine are changed. Kind of like the Taliban, or the Viet Cong, or the Tamil Tigers. When people feel that they have their backs against the wall they will keep joining movements like that, and they will keep fighting.

Sure, and I think that is really the point many people miss when talking about solutions, whether it be three state, two state, or whatever. They are putting the cart before the horse in some sense, because they expect a political movement to come out of Palestine that is acceptable to Israel and the West BEFORE the humanitarian issues in Palestine are dealt with. In my mind, it works the other way. Make Palestine a better place to live by giving Palestinians an identity, restitution, and some kind of future, and then you will see the emergence of moderate voices with whom you can really work with.

I think you’re absolutely right about needing to reduce Palestinians’ suffering before their politics will become more moderate too. There is no country on earth that would have moderate politics under military occupation while the majority of the population are in poverty or unemployed and occupying forces snipers routinely deliberately shoot children.

I think the only way forward is to negotiate with the existing Palestinian parties instead of forcing civil war through sanctions.

It worked with Sinn Feinn/IRA in Northern Ireland. One thing i have to give credit to Blair for is that he negotiated with Sinn Feinn and as a result the peace process in Northern Ireland succeeded.

The same thing is needed in Israel/Palestine.

Duncan !
Can the Israelites do anything right!
Yea right! the Palestinians are angels and Israel has snipers taking out little kids.
Be nice if you acknowledged some thing besides your hatred for Jews.
Do the math. Palestinians just cant get there shit together to save there life, literally ! to the point where they are killing each other. Is that Israels fault also ?
And then you refer to Amnesty international. Thats like sending Ronald Mcdonald to Mcdonalds.

Hold on micky, let’s be real here. The Palestinians are in no way blameless, but the Israelies have made some serious mistakes that they deserve to be held accountable for. (And as a Jew, I have no problem saying that.) Here’s the problem. Israel, right now, is in the position of power. They have powerful allies, lots of weapons, troops, and money, and they control the situation. It is exploitative for the people in power to tell those they subjugate, the Palestinians, to clean up their act first. Israel has the power to protect itself without turning Palestine into a prison. I feel it is wrong to expect perfect behavior from a people that has no options. Israel should clean up its act first, and that means stopping the settlements and allowing Palestine to become a country, before they should expect peace, not the other way around.

Yea but you know what . I dont see why Israel should always have to make concessions.
This shit has been going on since the 40s and the Israelites are surrounded by assholes that want them dead.
All these other Arab communitys should step up to the plate,especially the Saudis and give the palestinians a hand right now who are victims of two partys that cant really govern. The Israelites have just wanted this little peice of land that supposedly was givin to them so they would finally be able to settle down. And theyve been hounded ever since.
And they are trying . Olmert just today in good faith said he is releasing 250 Palestinian prisoners.
I’m sorry but I cant help but read into Duncans comment as to nothing more than anti semitism. And I’m not taking sides at all but it seems like he is. And gets his stats from leftist organizations , so what am I supposed to think ?
Hamas is a “terrorist organization “and hes trying to give them some kind of credibilty.
And Amnesty international forgot to mention that the Israeli air campaign was based on belief that armed combatents were in the area.
Lets have the facts both ways.
Lets mention where Hamas gets its money !
A Fatah and Hamas coalition ? Who wants to bet how long that will last ?

I dont see why Israel should always have to make concessions.

Well, because if they really want peace they will have to. And because they have the power to make concessions and keep their country, their security and their way of life. In short, it is the right thing to do. Especially when it concerns Israel, they should be held to standards or right and wrong, not some concept of fairness. Let’s admit mistakes: Israel did take a lot of land from a lot of people when they created their country and then expanded it. Those that were displaced deserve to be compensated, and Israel is in the position to do the right thing. I’ve got no vested interest in Israel, so I’m going to hold them to moral standards. And moral standards says they should do whatever they can to win the peace.

The same moral standards that Hamas uses?
Using children to fight there wars?

And like i said ,Olmert just released 250 Palestinians is a start. Israel just gave up Golan Heights after the last battle.
Theres all this Arab land in the Middle east . How come no other middle eastern country will help the Palestinians except for Iran funding Hamas.The same country that said Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth. If I were the Jews I wouldnt deal with these pricks at all, knowing what their wishes are.
If the palestinians elected a terrorist organization into office , they have to sleep in the bed they made.
Not to mention the Jewish settlements that were torn down a couple years ago by the Israelie govt. Thousands of Jews lost there homes due to a peaceful gesture on behalf of Israel.
I think right now theres one Jewish soldier the Israelis have been asking for the release of for a couple years.
Israel has made plenty enough concessions already.
And then they get shot at some more.
The palestinians half ass goverments in the past are their problem, not Israel

By the way, a three state solution { I think so}
would be the most promising approach in a long time.
But do you really think they wiil all shake hands and walk away after that? Thats the big question.
Gotta give all options a try ,right ?
But I wont hold my breath.

You can try to impress me and others with all the historical rederic you want.
What it boils down to is “today” and most recent occurances.
The Palestinians have been around just as long as the Jews. We could argue all the way back to Genesis and go back and forth ,yea you did this , but then they did that and on and on.
Point is , the Palestinians are either responsable for where they are at or they are going to blame Israel and others. Israel is a country that boasts a good economy and decades of more stability than Palestinian leaders have offerd there people. Palestine is hard up !, it has come to a point in history where they are being supported and funded by terrorist regimes. Iran which sends weapons and soldiers into Iraq is also funding Hamas’ And also has made it clear it wants to exterminate all of Israel.
This is the position Palestine has brought itself to by choosing to use this form of leadership and support.
So it brings me to the position that Palestine would more than gladly support the elimination of Israelies and Americans if Iran asked them to , since Iran is in control of the purse strings.
Israel is guilty of crimes in the past. But we can go as far as to say that war in itself is a crime , so spare me the war crimes crap. War is ugly. But when you use your own children in the line of fire you enter the realm of pure evil.
I’m dealing with the here and now.
You base an arguement on an ideology and theory and then start digging in history and selectivly pull from it what supports your beef, failing to ever expose anything that would contradict your opinion.And so you teach nothing.
My good man I am not stupid,though you may have your ducks in a row,they are all being fed by you.
In the “here and now” Israel has made repeated concessions to the Palestinians only to get screwed each time and they still havnt resorted to terror techniques, as much as it sems one would like to think they would.
I am quite capable of reading a mile long post and determining how that person leans and so I stand by my belief that you just dont like Jews or maybe even America.
How can anyone support or argue on behalf of a country being supported by another country that wants us and the Jews eliminated.
I believe the Palestinian and Israeli conflict will probably be the catalyst that could start a war like the world has never seen.
And if and when that happens I wont blame it on the Jews.
I find myself often being the only one on this website that has these confrontations and I enjoy it to certain extent, it is draining. Although it is better than hanging out all day long on other sites that do nothing but agree with each other and pat each other on the back.
Humbly enough I feel its my duty as an American to not let what I see as one side politically driven crap get out of hand and unchecked.

How come no other middle eastern country will help the Palestinians except for Iran funding Hamas.

This is a great point, and one I agree with. If you are talking about who has the power to create peace, other Arab nations have the power to absorb the Palestinian refugees and take off some of the pressure. Hey, I believe the US and other Western countries should help out too! When Isreal was created, people were displaced just like water is displaced when you drop a rock in a pond. If a government believes Israel was right to displace those people and has a right to exist (as I do), then you need to be willing to deal with the consequences of that displacement. Those consequences are refugees, and every nation in the world should open their doors to them.

Now, you said:

The Palestinians are either responsable for where they are at or they are going to blame Israel and others.

This is the wrong way to look at things, in my view. We in effect gave the Palestinians no good options. Israel displaced a ton of people, yet didn’t help find them new homes with which they could be successful. Israel and Western powers have consistantly blocked a real Palestinian country from forming. Without a country or a passport, it is really hard to be productive members of a world society. Think about it. There are no jobs in Palestine. Movement is severely restricted. There is hardly any money coming in, and without a state, it is impossible to conduct meaningful trade with neighbors. Without any of the infrastructure a real country provides, how can we expect the Palestinians to become a real country, with productivity, an economy, etc…

If we give them nothing but bad choices, then it is double wrong to blame them when they take one of their bad choices. Hamas was not a good choice by the Palesitinians, objectively. But I really can’t blame them. Fatah is widely seen as corrupt, stealing money to line politician’s pockets while the people starve. The election was a largely local issue, voting out a corrupt government for one that is less so. Again, Hamas was a bad choice objectively, but the Palestinians had no good choices.

Israel, other Arab nations, and the West have the power to make things right. I don’t care about tit for tat, I don’t care about fairness. I want peace in the Middle East, and so that means Israel and the others will have to make many many many concessions. And you know what, I think that’s the right thing to do! It is wrong to expect perfect behavoir, or even fairness, from a group of people that is so oppressed. If they are not equals (and they are not, they have no country), then how can we hold them to equal standards?

Israel needs to withdraw to its original borders and pay restitution to refugees. The Arab and Western world needs to open their borders to these refugees to make a place for them to stay. Palestine needs to become a real country, and it doesn’t matter who is in charge. Once those things are done, and once Palestinians are on an equal footing with the rest of the world, then we can start talking about them making concessions.

I have no problem with fairness as you know. Everyone deserves their place in the sun. and I probably could stand to be more educated on all the fine details.
My big problem is with people that out of seperatism or whatever ism slant there findings and appear like bigots.
My beef was with Duncan and how most of his points favored the palestinians without looking close enough at Israels past and position. We will never get anywhere in this world if people and countrys dont get humble including the U.S.

“Also , unless we’re back in Biblical times (which we’re not) they’re Israelis, not Israelites from thousands of years ago.”
Israelites / Israelis, Tomatoe / Tomaato, now my grammar is an issue. Now youve hurt my feelings

“If you base Israel’s claim to the land it holds on military force or right of conquest then you lose any moral right to criticise Hamas or Islamic Jihad or anyone else for attacks on Israelis.” Israel has come past those days , the Palestinian Goverment hasnt.
Your morals dictate your actions ,and my morals dictate my actions, but that doesnt dictate who wins a war.

“Ah the tired, feeble old “If you criticise the Israeli government and military you are a Jew hating anti-Semite” line.”
You put yourself right there.

“no longer a democracy and you end up in the mindless flag-waving nationalism of “my government always right and absolutely good /their enemies always wrong and absolutely evil”. I was talking about a terrorist group called Hamas.When it comes to my kids future I go with my country.

“If you actually believe Amnesty is “leftist” you know nothing about them.”I’ve seen them in action plenty of times,what they call “human rights ” is also frowning and standing in the way of people who want to defend themselves.

“If you still believe they’re “leftist” after that I can only assume you are so far to the right as to be , well , fascist in your views.” I’m way right on defending America.I would rather be facist than you.

“You seem to be saying that if one side knows there are enemy fighters who carried out attacks on their side in a town or camp they have the right to bombard the entire town with whatever weapons they have.”If that town is full of terrorists or combatents you damn right. Its called taking of my house first

“That would mean both Israeli forces had the right to bombard whole towns and refugee camps with artillery , helicopters and tanks because they knew some enemy fighters who fired rockets were in that town or camp - even though they know they’ll kill more civilians than fighters by these methods”.How was that supposed to go on ? Untill the killed all the “Israelites” ? Its called war ! And when you start adhering to this mass of morals and rules it drags on and on till more people get hurt than it would of otherwise in the beggining.

“Amnesty says firing indiscriminately on whole towns or refugee camps is wrong because it kills civilians. ”
If I were fighting the war I could give shit what Amnesty says

“Again you are ignoring the entire history right up to the present in order to pretend that Palestinians are just crazy people”.They elected a bunch of terrorist and sacrificed any moral standing they had.

“Since the Israeli, US , Egyptian and EU governments refused to recognise the government Palestinians elected in elections which international observers agreed were free and fair” – I dont think America or Israel are crazy about having an Iranian funded Palestinian goverment as a proxy of Irans intentions

Duncan I think you are sick, but thats just what I think.
As I look back on all your posts its starting to seem to me that it has become your mission in life to prove me wrong. And I admittI may have gotten carried away myself.
If you refer to post #18 this is where I stand. You may have a better knowledge of history, and I’ll grant you that much.
I said what I thought of you and your post. Had you presented your post in a more balanced way I would not of said that I think you have a hatred for Jews. This is the way I interpret it and theres nothing you can do about it, or to change my mind.
I’ve gotten 5 submissions showing you tried to post. I’ve had the same problem also, theres a glitch in the system. But you’re starting to look obsessed. People say things about me that I dont think are true and at a certain point its time to leave them with there thoughts.
I know I will not change their mind. If you go through your original post and take a tally you will see what I’m talking about if your sense of equality and fairness has healed from whatever is disturbing you.
As it stands in the middle east today is where I place my judgements. Not the blame game that goes way back in history or any relevant near past.
If Israel and Palestine dont stop fighting the same war over and over it will never end. Unfortunatly you dont want to hear my solution. It would make too much sense and really ,really offend ALOT of people. But in the end alot less people would die.
Everyone beats around the bush about the moral standards we should set for every action or reaction on anybodys part. And in centuries we havnt figured it out yet. And it has cost the world millions of lives while we all debate right and wrong.
The guy with the biggest gun wins.
Its the human food chain,the smarter and stronger win ,right or wrong. I may be morally stunted ,but I’m not stupid. For the sake of my family I’ll choose to live with the big guns. While you figure out whos right and wrong.
I am not a war monger but if you are going to fight a war, I believe you should fight all out to win. It is about self preservation ultimatly, right?
Thats the great thing about America, we stand united as individuals but are still safe as a group and fall divided if so.
War comes down to some basic decisions if you’re going to win. If you try to please everyone in the process you’ll lose.
Today I support Israel, its in my best interest. 50 years ago maybe not so much. If Hamas and Fatah are dealt with accordingly ,I will have nothing but sympathy for the Palestinian people. But I have to watch out for me first.
Post all you want , I,m done replying to you
I have no ill will towards you,I just dont like you.

I think there is no question that Israel has done wrong. However, I try and deal in political realities. Israel will never be destroyed, and will never be an integrated Jewish/Arab state. And I don’t believe those two things preclude peace. I am a huge believer in reality based politics to end conflict, not ideology, and I believe that if the Palestinians are given compensation for their land (which was unfairly taken away from them), a real functioning country free of Isaeli tyranny, and the refugees are allowed to settle either in new Palestine or elsewhere, then the terrorism problem will largely dissapear, as it did in Northern Ireland.

As for the above discussion, I do think both sides bring up good points. Israel has in fact committed war crimes (as has Bush and America, by the way), and people aren’t nearly as united behind Israel as they might seem. Those links are worth following. But micky has a good point too, in that might sometimes does make right in today’s world. However, I disagree that this SHOULD be the case, and I try and fight in my own way against might making right.

One word of warning, however. We don’t tolerate personal attacks on The Seminal, and some of the above comments on both sides are on the edge of being too much. In the future, for comments to be approved, there must be no personal attacks. There is nothing wrong with using someone else’s quotes, but comments about people’s knowledge, racism, or your opinions on others will not be tolerated.

First I’ll apologize for ruining the ambience at The Seminal.
Next I’ll refer to a post on another article where I said “I will be less substantive to other people’s positions. The working word should be “sensitive” ,but in the future I will be more cautious with peoples feelings and at the same time try to call it like I see it.” The gloves are coming off , but I wont hit below the belt” Sometimes I get pissed , and break my own rules, and I’ll apologize when that happens,and I’ll work on it so it doesnt happen again. So I need to back up and re phrase things.
In Duncans case, we all know how I saw it.And I’m well aware that I pushed his buttons.I am by nature an offensive person because I think its right to cut to the chase. But at 50 I’m still learning how to measure this.

In response to your comment on “might sometimes does make right in todays world” I agree that we should always do everything we can, with as much respect for human life as we can come up with, to avoid war.
In Kempo {chinese karate}the objective is to disable your opponent as quickly as possible to avoid further uneccesary harm to either opponent.
The first objectve to is avoid the conflict as much as possible. Even it means a loss of pride.Tolerate everythig up to the point of physical threat. If there is a pysical threat , you ward it of. If that threat persists and follows you , you disable it.
This is how I deal with and approach conflicts in all aspects of life.
As far as Israel and the Palestinians go , I think its like a bad marriage and the two keep trying to make it right,but they wont leave the hatred behind.
I am pessimistic in this case to the point where I think one should just clean the others clock or shut up.
I have watched these two go at it my whole life ,and its just a vicious cycle. On one hand the Israelis are surrounded by people that want them dead, and the Palestinians are getting shafted. Accepting Hamas as there leader is like taking a favor from the mob.
Israel wont make enough concessions and may never be able to. And the Palestinians are at the mercy of the world. That brings me to the Saudis. Which I think it would really be in there best interest to bring something to the table. They have more money and capability than they know what to do with. Shit! they are building there own islands left and right. They may not be crazy about the Palestinians, but I think they should be interested in stabalizing the region for the future of the other Arab nations.
Israel is partners with America in most middle eastern matters and will jump if we ask them to. And Iran is fighting America by proxy in Iraq. And I’m not crazy about Iran spreading its tentacles any further in any other country. My fear is based on them hating America and wanting Israel disintegrated.
Which is why out of self preservation and concern for my family I support Israel. Because if Iran does something stupid , Israel is our next best hope in that region.
It has nothing to do with race ,religion or politics.
Once again J-ro ,sorry about the heat.

Hey, just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with heat. I encourage the political arguments here to get as heated as they can. Passion is good. However, we must stick to the issues. Personal attacks bring us out of the politics we are discussing, and don’t do anything to further any argument. Again, heat = good. Personal attacks = bad.

first bit didnt come up right - you can use [ quote ] what i’ve said [ /quote ] (with all the spaces taken out) to quote me

Micky wrote

Tolerate everythig up to the point of physical threat. If there is a pysical threat , you ward it of. If that threat persists and follows you , you disable it.

You have to see this from both sides though. The Israeli threat to the Palestinians dwarfs the Palestinian threat to the Israelis.

If you see it only from the side of your own government and its allies then you are viewing things through an ideology - the ideology of nationalism.

There is also a big difference between a one on one fight and a conflict between countries. Killing or disabling people in an “enemy” country will only make more of them want revenge on your country and this will continue forever until both sides agree to negotiate peace without preconditions for either side - or else until one side committs genocide against the other (which can never be justified).

Micky wrote

Today I support Israel, its in my best interest. 50 years ago maybe not so much.

I don’t understand how supporting an occupation that makes many Muslims around the world hate the US government - and helps terrorist groups get new recruits as they see Palestinians killed - is in your interest.

Micky wrote

If Hamas and Fatah are dealt with accordingly ,I will have nothing but sympathy for the Palestinian people.

In free elections 44% of Palestinians voted for Hamas and 42% for Fatah.

What right do you have to tell Palestinians who they can vote for and who they can have as a government?

Your own President is reviled around the world - but no-one has claimed the right to tell Americans they can’t elect who they want.

If you have sympathy for the Palestinian people then respect their right to choose their own government.

Micky wrote

But I have to watch out for me first.

Giving Israel aid and arms does not reduce the threat to Americans it increases it because the US is arming and funding war crimes and the killing of civilians.
Micky wrote

Post all you want , I,m done replying to you
I have no ill will towards you,I just dont like you.

I neither have ill will towards you nor dislike you.

I hate what is being done to the Palestinians as murder , war crimes , theft of peoples’ houses and land seem wrong to me. I hate the violence by both sides , but as Israel is by far the more powerful (largely due to US aid) it and the US government have most of the power to end this conflict peacefully by negotiations giving the Palestinians the state the UN mandated for them at the same time it provided a mandate for Israel.

While Israel continues to use its military to force out Palestinians to make way for more settlers and its courts and government continue to approve of killings of unarmed Palestinians this will not end.

Many of your arguments are completely illogical to me, you seem to operate on double standards (one for the US and its allies , one for their enemies) and to have an ideological belief that the US and its allies are always right.

You present no facts to back up your claims and discount all the ones i provide because they dont fit with what you prefer to believe.

“There is also a big difference between a one on one fight and a conflict between countries. Killing or disabling people in an “enemy” country will only make more of them want revenge on your country and this will continue forever until both sides agree to negotiate peace without preconditions for either side - or else until one side committs genocide against the other (which can never be justified).”
Thats what scares me! I dont think these guys will ever work it out !
I’m worried about the domino effect if things get out of hand.
Of course all non violent measures should be taken first.
My reality is that it will never work out ,but… keep trying anyway. But how long does everyone keep trying?
Its like an abusive relationship. All the counseling and efforts havnt worked. There comes a time you have to leave the house or get killed.
Like I said before , all the history matters to certain extent. By now it doesnt matter. This shit needs to stop !
Israel might like to act vey aggresivelly, and I’m sure America is telling them to kick back.
The implications of this continuing and getting out of hand are catastrophic.
It should not be over land or past agreements broken. It should be looked at in the context of the human race.
If America needs to squeeze Israel ,so be it !
But no one , and I mean no one! has done anything to stop this viscious cycle.
Can the Arabs and the U.S. work together and get these two to leave each other alone ? I hope so. But I’m not going to put all my chips on it. Would be great if they could.
I wish I could come up with a solution that was nice.
I hate to refer to biblical scripture but the similarities to end days prophecy are frightening.
I dont think it will happen any time soon , but the components are all there.

Im sorry,
In the above post I thought I was responding to J-ro.
Instead it was Duncan.
I stand by my decision not to continue with Duncan.
I know where I stand and no one is going to try and make me feel any other way. Take it or leave it.

Yea, now I get it,I was responding to J-ro in #32. While I was typing 33, 34, 35 and 36 got slipped in.

Micky wrote

I stand by my decision not to continue with Duncan.
I know where I stand and no one is going to try and make me feel any other way. Take it or leave it.

So you don’t dislike me but you won’t talk to me because you’re afraid i might somehow force you to change the way you think or feel?

I can’t force you to do anything. I can only present facts and arguments.

Maybe they’re what you really dislike because you made up your mind that no matter what the facts are you will be for whatever the US government and its allies do anyway?

If your side of the argument is really right and has the weight of evidence on its side why would you refuse to debate?

Micky wrote

If America needs to squeeze Israel ,so be it !

Then there’s at least one point we agree on

Micky wrote

If America needs to squeeze Israel ,so be it !

Duncan says,
Then there’s at least one point we agree on

As soon as I mention or suggest any action on Israel you say we agree, and that is the only time you have agreed with me in two days.
I was right from the beggining.
I promise you sir,I will not have anything to do with you any more.
Too bad it wasnt bait. I could say you fell for it.
BYE !

That’s because you refuse to accept any criticism of Israel and try to label it all “anti-semitism” and “hatred of Jews” which is ludicrous.

If you’d read my posts i said people on both sides were doing evil things and that Islamic Jihad had also committed war crimes - also that the kidnapping of Corporal Shalit is a war crime.

However you only want to hear what you want to believe - that Israel and the US are basically good and anyone opposed to them is basically evil.

That’s your problem though Micky, not mine.

After some deep thought I’ve come to the decision that it is better for me to continue in this conversation. Only for the reason that I seriously believe that we should try to examine and try to draw scenarios that would or could bring some change for the better. Not only in Gaza, but all of the players and countrys that could be affected in this event.
I dont want to go back in time and start a list of who did what when. I believe that is pointless because it has proven to be useless in the past. And only stirs up more resentment and further inflames things among the three. If we do find out from a tally of history that one player has commited more crimes than the other it will solve and prove nothing for the Palestinians or the Israeli’s.
Neither one of them thinks they are the bad guy,so throwing history around is irrlevant. Whatever historical findings anyone may come up with, it has brought us to the point where we must ask ourselves,what are we going to do “now”?
I am worried about the implications this could have on the world. Not so much the middle east.
If this situation in the middle east cannot be fixed, then I think all the players should be dealt with severly.{ the list of options that are “severe” would consist of “final” measures} Their peace is not as important as the future of man.
Here is my vision of scenario #1.
Common sense dictates that only one goverment should represent the Palestinians.In Gaza the choice has been made. I dont beleive that a percentage of Palestinians under Fatah and a percentage of them under Hamas is a good idea. It leaves a potential for rivalry. All Palestinians should vote on their choice of the two and then live with that choice in “one” area that is put aside for them.
Israel should give up a section that can support the needs for a society to grow. And be close enough in proximity to Jerusalem for the Palestinians.
Splitting Israel in two instead of this jigsaw puzzle is my first recomendation. Draw a line from the west coast to Tel Avive, and from Tel Avive the line goes right up the middle of Jerusalem to the eastern border. South of the border will be Palestine and the north Israel. Jerusalem will be a neutral designation for worship purpose only.For these two people to be crossing each others path on a daily basis is stupid. If Jerusalem needs to be treated like child in a custody/visitation case that might work. Or a more pratical proposition would be to have it as a neutral no weapon/no conflict zone.
Anyone violating borders or agreements will be taken and dealt with by a fresh and new penal system put together by a totally new and reconstructed United Nations consisting of reprsenatives from all countries that have no concerns or affliations with Israel or Palestine. Too many of the shitheads there now are over priveledged and over paid { International amnesty and all that crap}.
This system will operate as its own entity and be free of persuasion from outside interests.
After this whole process becomes done and final, any country that violates the treaty by pre emted attacks or land grabs will be shut down . No more of this back and forth crap, they will of had there chance.
All the details need to be worked out ,but this will be the foundation.
Scenario #2.Take all the leaders from all teams and put them in room together and give them a year to work something out. If they cant work something out, kill them all !
If this happens,more than likely the people will elect new leaders and we should apply the same method that selection of leaders. After these leaders get tired of watching their predecesors get killed, they will start coming up with some answers and ideas that really work.
It would be interesting to see how these leaders make decisions when it could be their life on the line. Instead of millions of innocents.
FUCKIN A ! This should apply globaly !

If an elected official violates any agreements drawn up by agreements made in this room, kill him!
I believe the competency levels in these leaders would change dramatically , quickly !
Anyone that thinks this is a harsh idea is absolutly right.
The war that stands to take place if this corner of the world cant get its shit together gives me nightmares.
And with no exageration at all it could be the end of us all.
True , I like Israel, but thats a personal thing. Another personal thing is, I like people and my earth better too. Way better.
A personal view of three states is that it wouldnt work. Dividing Israel up into three parts is like opening a can of worms. The Palestinians as a whole have to decide on a leadership within one goverment. All though I dont believe that terroristic actions should be rewarded in any way. Especially being afforded the luxury of civil negotiation.
I dont reward my son for throwing a tantrum when he doesnt get his way.He gets popped in the but and thrown in his room.If he thinks this behavior gets him what he wants he will do it again. {we only had this problem once} When he realizes that behavior didnt work and he gets a grip , we talk about a solution.
Anyway ,we are where we are at and that is Hamas and Fatah.
J-ro mentioned a coalition of Hamas and Fatah once already and I dont think that will work because it seems both partys are corrupt. And they cant apply sensible conduct to there own organization so I dont think they could apply sensible conduct to a bi lateral organization. I think it depends on who will offer more support to who. How far will Iran go to keep Hamas floating. And if Iran does give them a big boat, where can Fatah draw support , and how much, will it come from the U.S. ,Israel ?
I believe strongly that there will be a war to decide the matter at stake and the teams will be Iran/Hamas vs Fatah/U.S.. This is where it gets too scary to worry about who is right or wrong.
This is why I would like to shit can both Hamas and Fatah.
The Palestinians need to find a more common ground for their leadership. Vote on that commonality and select new leaders from the feild that have no adherance to Hamas or Fatah, and go with my recomendations above in the first scenario above.
History should be studied so we dont repeat our mistakes, fine and granted. But all these players use history as reason to breed resentment and justify the stupid shit that they do and have done in the past. So the history becomes irrelavent to me in its use for peace. Obviously nothing in eithers history has worked to bring them together or keep them apart.
So, they should be subjected to the discretion of the world around them , because it is “ALL” of our asses at stake, not just theirs.
I think any solution should be final and definate. Because the longer this conflict goes on , the greater the chance one of them will get impatient and do something stupid. If smaller factions in the arena are not content with the plan , and resort to terror or violence they should be made an example of so it doesnt happen again. The consequences will be life in prison or the ground.

Anyone who starts pointing fingers or teases my spelling and grammar will get a smiley bearing a huge middle digit.

J-RO - I agree completely. Fatah’s charter originally called for the destruction of Israel yet over time they have come to have more realistic and reasonable aims.

If we punish Hamas for taking part in elections (as all our governments have done so far) then their armed wing and their leaders in exile in Syria will gain influence.

If we allow them to take their place in a Palestinian government , as (in my opinion) we should have from the start their leaders in the occupied territories who, out of necessity , are more moderate and willing to negotiate than the exiles , will gain more influence.

micky, I think your 1st solution is best, but hard to accomplish of course. Jerusalem should be an international city, much like the Vatican in Rome. And Israel needs to give up the territory it conquered in the 6 day war, but unfortunately that is unlikely to happen without signifigant international pressure. The basic thing that I think needs to be realized by Israel is that a free, strong, and independent Palestinian state is not necessarily a threat to Israeli security, and that even if it were, the moral, political, and physical consequences of being occupiers, invaders, and tyrants isn’t worth the modest gain.

Glad you’re back Micky and you make some good points, though also some others that i have to disagree with.

Micky wrote

dont want to go back in time and start a list of who did what when. I believe that is pointless because it has proven to be useless in the past. And only stirs up more resentment and further inflames things among the three. If we do find out from a tally of history that one player has commited more crimes than the other it will solve and prove nothing for the Palestinians or the Israeli’s.

I agree with you on this and I wasn’t trying to prove which side was worse.

My point was that there have been war crimes/terrorism/wrong actions on both sides up to the present and that needs to be acknowledged rather than just labelling Palestinian leaders terrorists who can’t be negotiated with.

Micky wrote

I am worried about the implications this could have on the world. Not so much the middle east.
If this situation in the middle east cannot be fixed, then I think all the players should be dealt with severly.{ the list of options that are “severe” would consist of “final” measures} Their peace is not as important as the future of man.

I do agree it’s a worrying situation (though i think there’s no likelihood of nuclear war initiated by Iran or its clients for instance)

Don’t really agree on the rest. The problems in the Middle East are as much caused by other countries and groups (including Russia, China, the EU and the US) involvement in supporting and arming their own clients in the Middle East and sanctioning those they dont favour as down to people in the Middle East.

Micky wrote

Splitting Israel in two instead of this jigsaw puzzle is my first recomendation. Draw a line from the west coast to Tel Avive, and from Tel Avive the line goes right up the middle of Jerusalem to the eastern border. South of the border will be Palestine and the north Israel. Jerusalem will be a neutral designation for worship purpose only

This two state solution with Jerusalem as an international city is a good idea.

It’s actually more or less the plan proposed by the UN lots of times too - though i think the split is East-West with the ‘green line’ or border between them.

From what i’ve read the US and Israeli government have usually been opposed to it i think?

Micky wrote

a fresh and new penal system put together by a totally new and reconstructed United Nations consisting of reprsenatives from all countries that have no concerns or affliations with Israel or Palestine. Too many of the shitheads there now are over priveledged and over paid { International amnesty and all that crap}.
This system will operate as its own entity and be free of persuasion from outside interests.

First Amnesty International have nothing to do with the UN.

Second no-one in Amnesty International is over-paid.

They are mostly volunteers working for free with a few paid people on low wages who certainly aren’t doing it for the money.

To have no affiliations to Israel or Palestine you’d have to have no US representative to the UN, which is Israel’s main ally and source of funds and arms.

You also need an agreement among all the countries involved with both to help ensure peace, so i don’t think excluding them would be best.

Micky wrote

If this happens,more than likely the people will elect new leaders and we should apply the same method that selection of leaders. After these leaders get tired of watching their predecesors get killed, they will start coming up with some answers and ideas that really work.
It would be interesting to see how these leaders make decisions when it could be their life on the line. Instead of millions of innocents.
FUCKIN A ! This should apply globaly !

If an elected official violates any agreements drawn up by agreements made in this room, kill him!
I believe the competency levels in these leaders would change dramatically , quickly !

While I agree that holding leaders accountable for their actions and their violations of agreements is necessary, and you’re right that too many people die due to decisions made by people who arent risking their own lives , i don’t think killing them if they fail to is a solution.

I mean for instance would you advocate killing the President of the US for violating agreements?

Israeli governments have repeatedly violated agreements with the Palestinians and UN resolutions too so you’d be shooting a lot of Israelis as well as Palestinians.

It’s better to think of methods that you would think were fair if applied to your own country or government or yourself as much as if they were applied to others.

Micky wrote

I believe strongly that there will be a war to decide the matter at stake and the teams will be Iran/Hamas vs Fatah/U.S.. This is where it gets too scary to worry about who is right or wrong.
This is why I would like to shit can both Hamas and Fatah.
The Palestinians need to find a more common ground for their leadership. Vote on that commonality and select new leaders from the feild that have no adherance to Hamas or Fatah, and go with my recomendations above in the first scenario above.

This is where i disagree with you completely.

Hamas and Fatah are both involved in terrorism to some extent - but the US and Israeli government (and my own government) are all involved in war crimes to some extent.

We have no right to tell Palestinians who they can or can’t vote for or do or don’t support or to apply double standards in which their terrorism makes them unacceptable but our war crimes don’t matter.

The only solution is to respect the results of the Palestinian elections and either a Hamas government or a Hamas-Fatah coalition (such as the one that collapsed because sanctions weren’t lifted).

Jerusalem “should” be an international city for ton of reasons. And if its so damn important to everyone it should be treated that way. My take on religion and its material connections { landmarks & artifacts} is “so fucking what” Unfortunatly these guys cant be trusted around each other. And their sentiments are opposite of mine
Draw the borders any way necessary that can be functional in terms of commerce, geographics, spirituality, and security. If that includes the Gaza strip & Sinai I dont have a problem with that its up to them to figure out a balance on Jerusalem and the West Bank.
A free strong Palestine is of course very important, as is for any human. But wiil that controling goverment wish that upon its neighbors.
Look , alot of agreements have been made and broke in the past. My main proposition is to give this one last really good chance. If it doesnt work then they both will of been proven unworthy of negotiations and respecting the agreements that stem from it. And will have to be babysat by international forces. And that will be a circus.
And I do see the gains as modest all throughout the history which is another reason why I ask why “both” are so hard to please. I think its religious hatred that just wont go away. But all you can do is try. I really dont have high hopes for them which is why my suggestions are so cynical and definate.
Those that read my thoughts on organized religion will realize I’m very unsympathetic to any one fighting on behalf of theory.
And time and time again organized religion has raised its ugly head only to commit what it condems.

# 49 was a response to J-ro.

In response to Duncan, the thing with the United Nations was a brain fart on my part. I was refering to the immunity from our legal system that Ambassadors have and each countrys Rep. has while in this country.
{I said “International Amnesty” , not Amnesty international} The proper phrase is on the tip of my tongue.

I see the East/West split as unfair. I would figure they should be able to share the trade and tourism that would come from a North/South division.{ Beach, harbors}

I think that if a politician says he will do one thing and does the opposite and it results in finding out he lied and as result is that millions die, hell ya , kill him!
{ and please dont start the Bush thing with me,thats a different debate}

I,m obviously not crazy about Hamas and Fatah. But If they prove to be failures for their country or the peace of the region, the Palestinians should look within their own population for some leaders.
Right now lets stop fighting and try to work with what we’ve got.
I like to humor myself, but seriously. If the punihsments for a politicians failure to follow through on a promise was more severe more. Than half the problems in this world wouldnt be here or would been solved alot quicker. Running for office would require serious dedication on a religious level.

Micky wrote

In response to Duncan, the thing with the United Nations was a brain fart on my part. I was refering to the immunity from our legal system that Ambassadors have and each countrys Rep. has while in this country.
{I said “International Amnesty” , not Amnesty international} The proper phrase is on the tip of my tongue.

Ah right sorry i misunderstood you there.
You mean diplomatic immunity ( i forget these kinds of things randomly myself too)

Micky wrote

I see the East/West split as unfair. I would figure they should be able to share the trade and tourism that would come from a North/South division.{ Beach, harbors}

That’s an excellent point and one i hadn’t thought of (mainly because i doubted if the Israeli government would accept it). Hadn’t thought of the tourism aspect either.

I’ve also found out i was wrong about the green line (thought i knew more history than i did there ).

It marks the border in 1949 - not the borders suggested by the UN - though the Israelis are still taking land on the Palestinian side even of the 1949 border.

I finally found a map of the UN’s reccomendation for the borders in 1947 and they aren’t just East/West - they gave 3 linked zones to each side so they’d both have ports and water supplies. I’ve found the same map here -http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm (scroll down till you come to the third map)

Micky wrote

I,m obviously not crazy about Hamas and Fatah. But If they prove to be failures for their country or the peace of the region, the Palestinians should look within their own population for some leaders.
Right now lets stop fighting and try to work with what we’ve got.

I agree but the same applies to Israeli leaders as to Palestinians.

We should definitely work with the leaders already elected by the Israeli people and by the Palestinian
people.

On your last line I was refering to all partys , even though all I mentioned was Hamas and Fatah.
I’m not crazy about Hamas or Fatah ,thats no secret. And Israel should { by benefit of doubt} try to work with the goverment the Palestinians chose. But if all hell breaks loose again, Whoever initiated it should be slapped upside the head and have control taken away. This goes for everyone.
They will of blown their chance.

I realize all this sounds too simple. And I’m quite capable of deep detailed thought. But this situation does need to be simplified
And all the other countrys that have interests in this part of the world will have to take a back seat, because its not their lives or their country. “Ultimately” its up to the Palestinians and Israel and no one else

I agree Israelis and Palestinians are ultimately the ones that have to make peace, but the US, EU and Israeli governments are also responsible for their actions and the effects of those actions.

Those actions are making it impossible for those in Hamas who want to negotiate to control or reign in their armed wing even if they want to.

The Israeli government has refused to negotiate with Hamas and it , the US and the EU placed sanctions on Hamas from right after it was elected on(and these continue in Gaza) - and continued them even when Hamas made a coalition deal with Fatah.

The Bush administration is providing money for uniforms weapons and training to Fatah and Israel and Egypt have co-operated to arm Fatah.

To fund Fatah while preventing Hamas from negotiating or taking part in government is a recipe for civil war among Palestinians and for losing political leaders’ control over the armed wings of Fatah and Hamas.

Ah, there it is.
Like I said , give every opportunity a chance. And it will give these players a last chance to show the world that they can do this on their own. If they fail , bring in the baby sitters.
So if we are going to give every opportunity a chance, that means bringing Hamas to the table as viable opportunity.
In this case the U.S. and Israel would have to reckognize Hamas as should Fatah.
All players and backers should be open to all scenarios, then sit down and do the think tank thing. But like I said,if they screw it up after that. Its not there call anymore. If they cant reach an agreement, kill em all ! {just joking}
And then of course there will be all the hassles of just getting the U.S. the E.U. and whoever to agree to this vision.

I’m with micky in that I think we need some sort of unpartisan negotiators and some way to impose a truce if it comes to that. The US, though we have made progress in the past, I feel is a bad negotiator because when push comes to shove, the US will side with Israel. The UN makes a better negotiator in this case, but of course the UN is also hamstrung because there are so many conflicting voices, it’s hard to get anything done. As Duncan pointed out, every major country in the world has their hands in the Middle East, and that makes it hard for anyone to act with true fairness. A long term goal for the US should be to make the Middle East less important to our affairs, which basically means energy independence, but that’s a whole different conversation.

J-ro said; ” As Duncan pointed out, every major country in the world has their hands in the Middle East, and that makes it hard for anyone to act with true fairness. A long term goal for the US should be to make the Middle East less important to our affairs, which basically means energy independence, but that’s a whole different conversation.”

Which is why I think ultimately it boils down the Israeis and the Palestinians. Because there are just too many outside influences to make any rules of peace or war truly non partisan. Which is why I suggested earlier that these guys be locked in a room and do the think tank negotiation thing. And if after a year they cant come up with anything,kill them !
I know… Everyone reads that KILL THEM line and tells themselves, this guy Micky is fuckin nut’s !
I realize that will probably never happen. But lets just entertain the idea for a minute.
The room they would be in would actually be a fairly posh little mansion , with full amenities and comforts and communications to whatever sources they need.
If after a whole year of trying to come up with a plan for peace doesnt work, it would lead me to believe that these two countries dont want peace as much as they want something else. So the fighting will most likely continue out in the fields and cities and suburbs.
But the stipulation in this case would be that if they fail, they {the negotiators} will have to put on the uniform of their countrys military and join the rest of their troops in the fight. And these Jaba the hut looking old farts would be in no shape for combat and probably get killed.{Execution would be performed by the result of their failure}
Knowing the existence of this stipulation previous to the one year negotiation plan would definately increase the odds of a settlement.
If these gentlemens divides with each other are so severe that no peace is ever in sight.They are truly as dangerous as any plague or natural catastrophy. And why should the rest of the world have to suffer because of a bunch of assholes who can’t get past their pride or visions.
Alright, we dont have to kill them. But they should be stripped of the ability to ever enter an arena having to do with the welfare of even one person.
Which is why there have always been suggestions that elected officials as a pre requisite to holding office do some combat first, or at least suffer the consequences of their decisions.
For each country that is a player in this whole scene to be energy independent is a long way off if not impossible.
So I dont think we could depend on an energy indepedent scenario in order to keep bias out of the mix. Energy independence could eventually happen, but thats a long way down the road. And my feeling is that we are running out of time.
I think it just boils to some serious consequences if these two cant work it out. And the consequences will be of their own doing, one way or the other.
My wife is a devout Christian and is always talking about how she would just love to go to Jerusalem.
Its funny how you can love somebody so much and at the same time think that they are completly out of their fucking mind.
She obviously has a much more positive vision than I do.

I myself think that this situation is going to get worse before it gets better. That is due to my personal perspective of Israel and the Palestinians. I would love to be wrong or feel differantly.
But I still think we need to put out an effort to save the lives at stake no how negative I am, or what anyone thinks. And that means that all interests and bias needs to be on the side. And I dont see that happening. Which is why my suggestions and ideas are so autocratic and definate.