I hate to sound insensitive here… But I woud hardly fault the Republican candidates for not showing up. In fact, I am disgusted by the whole concept of this debate anyway. Now, before you go jumping all over me, realize that I have absolutely no problem with gays. I couldn’t care less. So log as people are hard working, tax paying, civil americans, I couldn’t care less if they like men, women or goats.

With that said, let me explain why I am disgusted by this debate.

For the most part, I am annoyed with the efforts of left to separate American into sub-groups. America is no longer filled with Americans, it is filled with African-Americans, gay (or LBT)-Americans, Asian-Americans… Well, you get the picture. These people have all become “protected” classes while people who can’t legitimately put a hyphen in front of their name are treated like the bad guys even though they are quickly becoming the true minorities in many areas of this country.

I am bothered by the left’s constant pandering to these people. These days they go out of their way to not only acknowledge, but to also uphold the separatio of these groups, and by holdig presidential debates that are exclusive to one group or another, aren’t they simply flaunting divides in this country?

I understand that everybody wants equality and fairness, but how can anybody ever think that equality can be achieved when divides are embraced? I mean, couldn’t you simply hold a debate that is open to everybody, including gays, blacks, whites and goat lovers? If everybody’s voices are equally heard, how could anybody claim discrimination? I don’t think you need to separate people into groups and address each one as some sort of independant entity in order to achieve equality and fairness. After all, aren’t we all just American-Americans?

If not, well, then I want to be called eyeglass wearing-American and I want the democrats to hold a debate with only eyeglass wearing people…

Arclightzero, I feel sympathy for this cause, and objectively I think you’re right. However, the question is unfortunately still one of discrimination. If there were no LGBT community, do you think the issue of gay marriage would ever get addressed? How would that come up, if there were no visible groups of people advocating for it?

The way i see it, people form these minority groups to make visible their voting power. When we’re talking about civil rights, oppressed people can become singly issue voters, and so they form groups to show candidates that if they want a group’s vote, they need to address their legitimate issues.

At some point, one would hope that minorities would become equal to the majority, and so people could drop the labels. We’ve seen a move towards that with feminism, with less people self-identifying as feminist, or at least less people identifying with the radical feminism of the past. I feel this is mostly because the feminist movement has accomplished many of their main goals. There still are inequalities, and until they are erased we’ll still have a feminist movement, but as more goals get accomplished the division becomes less important.

Oh, and one note. This behavior is in no way solely a leftist phenomenon. The right constantly panders to evangelist Christians, gun rights groups, and others.

CarlosMencia had a pretty good take on this, he kind of put it this way.
There was a guy in a wheelchair at the DMV that wanted to go to the front of the line because he was handicapped. And he claimed that it was only proper that he be treated as an equal.
Carlos said; well I know you have a special need , but you have a chair to sit in, and when you get to the front of the line after me , your needs will be met.
If you truly want equality, get in line with the rest of us.
Gays are not disabled and dont see what civil liberties they are not getting, other than civil unions not being acknowledged in some states. I think the law should change so that these unions are respected in every state.
But if they want to be called married, and have their marriage blessed in the eyes of God they have a long road in front of them.

Not seeing what rights the LGBT community isn’t getting is a pretty ignorant thing to say. Here’s a quick rundown:

- marriage, not civil unions. Seperate but equal was ruled inequal and illegal a long time ago. (God has nothing to do with it. I’d imagine few churches would bless these unions and that’s fine, I’m just talking about legality. It needs to be legal marriage for all, or civil unions for all, not both.)

- protection from hate crimes. Not all states have hate crime laws that include LGBT crimes, and there isn’t one at the federal level.

- adoption rights. Homosexuals still have trouble adopting children in various places.

- military discrimination. Don’t ask, don’t tell is silly.

There are probably some more. Before they can get in line with the rest of us, we need to ensure they are actually equal.

I have to argue a couple points here.

First off, separation perpetuates inequality because it usualy angers the main body of the people who they are being separated from. After all, how is one difference between people more important than another? (i.e. why does being gay mean something different than mine wearing eyeglasses? After all, I was picked on notorioulsy for being a nerd and four-eyes in my younger years…)

That aside, I will argue that:

gay marriage is a big grey area. I’m all for civil unions but I don’t think that the government has the right to tell a church to recgnize a marriage, which the way things go is how it would be, since issues are treated in an all-or-nothing light.

I don’t believe in any hate crime legislation period. It assumes that one murder is worsr than another when both people are equally dead. Persaonlly I think that all crimes are hate crimes in their own right.

Children need a mother and father. I appreciate gay couples’ efforts, but my interest and schooling in psychology makes me question how well rounded a child could grow up in a homosexual household.

Don’t ask don’t tell is very important. having been in the service, I know what it’s like and I know the prevailing attitude towards gays. You can’t take something that is predominantly occupied by rednecks from the south and force them to be ok with something that they are morally or dundamentally opposed to and hope for a good outcome.

I’m in agreement about the church. You can’t force churches to recognize gay marriage, nor should you. My view here is legal. The word marriage is used in our laws, outside of the church. If we want marriage to continue to be a legal term, then we need to recognize it on the state level for homosexuals, no matter what church does or does not condone it. If we don’t want to do that, then we need to make marriage a completely religious word, write it out of the law altogether, and make civil unions the only option when the government is involved. All people would get their civil union approved by a judge or magistrate, and then get married in a church if they want, but as far as the law goes, it only recognized civil unions (or marriages), just not both.

Hate crimes, you have a point, but I’m not quite ready to go there. I believe there is a particular kind of evil that governs the minds of those who kill out of hate. I think KKK members who lynch African Americans deserve stronger sentences than regular murderers, and the same with those who harm homosexuals. It seems to me that as a society if we rightly look upon bigotry as a larger transgression than simple agression.

As for children, that’s simple bigotry right there. If there are to be requirements for having kids, perhaps single mothers shouldn’t be allowed to have children, or parents who are too poor, or those who fight too much. There are many things that can harm kids. You can’t just pick out one.

And lastly, your argument for don’t ask, don’t tell proves the argument for hate crimes and the argument that the LGBT community needs to differentiate itself. If there is bigotry in the army (which you admit), then there need to be special laws to protect those who suffer from it.

I agree with you on principle. It would be great if there were no minority groups, if we were just all Americans. But as you so astutely point out, this isn’t the case. Homosexuals face descimination from their government and from their fellow Americans. Until that is erased, I can’t argue against their organizing efforts. I know you’ll say that these divisions only perpetuate the hate, however I can’t think of a group of people that has successfully eliminated that discrimination simply by assimilating. Can you?

J-ro said;
“As for children, that’s simple bigotry right there. If there are to be requirements for having kids, perhaps single mothers shouldn’t be allowed to have children, or parents who are too poor, or those who fight too much. There are many things that can harm kids. You can’t just pick out one.

It is by no means bigotry.
Its what you feel you should or should not expose children to. Which is a very, very inportant choice.
What is bigoted about not wanting my boy to see one man kissing another?
Watching two men be intimate { not necessarily sex}is going to be a lot harder for a 8 year old boy to process than watching mommy and daddy.
There’s poor gay people that fight too much also, but to top it of , they are gay.
A single mother holds a lot better chance of exposing a child to a heterosexual relationship than a gay couple does.
She might even have multiple male partners in the course of the childs growth.
I saw from my father how a man should treat a woman in all departments of life. And the same goes for my Mom.
I find it ridiculous that anybody could argue that a Homosexual household can raise a child just as well as a heterosexual couple could. Its just absurd.

Micky, you dissapoint me. That was one of the most ignorant and hateful things I’ve read in a while. Sorry man, but I gotta call you out on that.

While I appreciate your views, I strongly disgaree with some of your points…

As far as hate crimes go, I have to say that there is evil behind any murder. I’m not going to get into it full blown, but I took some great issue with hate crimes this past spring when a young white couple was brutally raped and murdered by five black men yet it wasn’t classified as a hate crime. If there is to be hate crime legislation it has to apply to everybody, not jst to “protected” classes because hate can apply in any direction. However, since I think everything should be equal and that thought shouldn’t be looked at as a factor, I still don’t belive that hate crime legislation is a good idea.

As for the bogotry thing, well I would hardly think that it’s fair to refer to what I said about parents as bigotry. All I am saying is that from a psychological viewpoint it’s better for a child to have a mother and a father than any of the other options. Interestingly, as far as adoptin goes, people are severely scrutinized before they are allowed to adopt so that it is ensured the child will be going into the best household possible. Yes, shit happens and kids end up in all sorts of bad situations, but is it ok to place a child in a questionable situation from the get go? I’m not saying I feel one way or another, I am simply speaking from a textbook psychological persepctive on child growth and development here.

And the military? Well, hate crimes have nothing to do with what I was talkig about. I’m just saying that you can’t expect them to work side by side. If you try and forc the issue you ru the risk of losing people and cuttig the number of enlistees, since military service is voluntary after all. Can you expect people to voluntarily put themselves in situations they are opposed to? Some may, others won’t, but I can assure you that the gay population, despite all of their whining about wanting an open military, aren’t going to provide enough people to make up for the loss.
You can read my full analysis including the numbers I came up with here:
http://arclightzero.wordpress.com/2007/06/08/dont-ask-dont-tell-redux- why-it-needs-to-stay/

All I am saying is that from a psychological viewpoint it’s better for a child to have a mother and a father than any of the other options.

Prove it. Until you do, it is bigotry.

Some may, others won’t, but I can assure you that the gay population, despite all of their whining about wanting an open military, aren’t going to provide enough people to make up for the loss.

On the whole, true. However, what about this story: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/23/america/NA-GEN-US-Military-G ays.php

You’ve got a class of people that are in high demand, yet are being kicked out for their sexuality. That’s not just bigoted, that’s dangerous.

Theres a glitch in the system so the posts arent showing at the same time my e-mail is.
So I’ll just post this now and let J-ro edit things accoringly.
I just recieved an e-mail from J-ro that says my last post{#7}was hurtful and bigoted.
I understand some would come to this conclusion, especially since sometimes I type faster than I think.
But my feelings about this have been around for quite a while.
So lets offer some background here first.
One of my closet friends is gay and his name is Leon.
He is 15 years older than me and was the shoulder I cried on over my first love{little vietnamese girl} when I was 12, and I mean tears. He is one of the kindest most tolerant and forgiving men I have ever met in my 50 years. And anybody that fucks with him will have me to answer to.
I was raised in a very open and non discriminating household. We had anything but white mainstream mayonaise fed white people hanging around.I grew up being surrounded by Leons friends and grew up watching him with his friends, he was a very close friend of our family and still is to this day. He comes to all our family gatherings and is just as important as anyone in our family. That was an understatement, he is family.
I also have spent most of my life in the restaraunt business and have worked and gotten along with more gays than most people. And I actually would much rather work in this field with them for the reason that gay men are more prone to detail than hetero men. Gay men, for some reason have a much better work ethic.
For those of you that have never been to Hawaii, we have a very large gay population, and very much so in Waikiki.
In my younger days my daughters mother and I would only go to gay bars together for a number of reasons.First reason was that we were respected as a couple. And every smuck in the place wouldnt try to pick up on my ole lady, or me.
The music was way better, and so was the food.{If anyone makes it over here check out “HULA’S BAR AND LEI STAND”.

So as far as my statements above go lets make one thing clear.
I am sure that a gay couple could raise a child just fine.
But the “NATURAL” choice that is dictated by most procreating species around us shows us that it was and is natures plan to have an offspring raised by one of each..
And I strongly object to being called bigoted just because I think Dick and Jane could do a better than job than Tom and Harry.
I grew up from the time I was 12 watching a lot of gay men and having them as friends. I always wonderd what it was like to be with another man, after all, if they could do it so comfortably maybe it wasnt as repulsive as I thought it was. So when I was 24 years old I gave it try.
I was an emotional wreck for years after that. I felt so stupid and small for not reckognizing my own identity.
I hated myself. I felt as though I had broken a bond I had with myself.
I do not blame anyone for this. But the exposure to very many gay people drove a curiosity in me. And sent me to a place that was not necessary. Some guys probably would of killed themselves.I usually dont run around telling people about this, but in this case I will. I now know who and what I am,and I dont care what anyone thinks. I have forgiven myself.
So I can safely say that it would not be in my best interest for me to over expose my 12 year old boy to a number of gay relationships, or two gay parents for that matter.And I’m not saying the same thing will happen to every kid with my level of exposure.
Also anyone speaking out on the subject of gay parenting I believe should “actually be a parent”! before they can be so judgemental of me or anyone with their own kids.
I’ve raised two so far and they are REALLY good kids.
I think I have just a little more credibility than those who have no kids, period.
Up untill my kids were about 8 I steered them away from homosexual displays because I didnt think it was fair to expose them to a situation that was too hard for them at that age to comprhend or process. They didnt even know about heterosexuality yet and I have to start explaining homosexuality to them ? Give me a break!
Let them grow up for christ sake. At the age of 4 or 5 a kid with gay parents will notice that his family is a little different.And he WILL ask questions. So now… we have to start explaining things ? To a 4 year old, thats just too early.
So now… Am I bigoted or just trying to be a good dad ?

And I strongly object to being called bigoted just because I think Dick and Jane could do a better than job than Tom and Harry.

My answer here is the same as above. If you can prove it, then it isn’t a bigotted idea.

As for your children, first you need to prove that “being exposed” to homosexual relationships somehow make people more likely to be gay. The science I’ve read points to a genetic or neo-natal cause, so being exposed later in life most likely wouldn’t do anything. Second, I’d ask you what you would do if one of your children came out as a homosexual. I hope you’d support full rights (including adoption and marriage) for your own children, and I’d expect that if you do, you’d support them for everyone else’s as well.

-ro said;
My answer here is the same as above. If you can prove it, then it isn’t a bigotted idea.

This makes little sense since the rates of gays raising children is almost nothing compared to that of hetero households. Its almost like asking me to prove something is extinct
But we have been raising kids in hetero households for thousands of years right now and there is alot more proof in favor of hetero’s than there is gays.
It is the gay community that has something to prove, not the heterosexual community.
YOU have to proove that a child will do better in a gay household than a hetero household, not the other way around
I stand nothing to loose, the gay commnunity does.

I dont need to prove shit!
To you or anyone. They are my children, not yours.
You got any kids ?
Theres nothing saying that a kid will be anything if I expose him to it now. BUt why chance it?
And nobody said anything about turning out gay.
If you are selfish enough to expose a kid to something out of your own ideoligy that wiil give him bullying problems at school you have no right in this world to raise a child.
It amazes me again. How people who dont have a clue what they are talking about can act as if they know better.
Our children will be subjected to all kinds of influences when they grow. But to steer them away from certain influences as “I” see fit is called PARENTING.

If there were omly 2 couples left on this earth, and one was gay and the other hetero. Both financialy and emotionally stable, do you mean to tell me that the hetero couple would not be your choice ?
If you say it doesnt matter, then your opinion of me and the matter is irrellevant. Because then an opinion is not needed if it doesnt matter.
Fathers and Mothers are a role played in our kids lives that is irreplacable. Gay parents I’m sure can do VERY good job of parenting. Hetero familys can offer anything a homosexual family can offer, but more in the context of role modeling.
Just because I think a certain sect in society wont raise children better than the other does not make me biggot.
And I really wish you would take that back!

Well, well, well. Lots of conversation… so good to see. I’m humbled my guest post brought out some great dialogue.

Where to start? There is so much to consider. I’ll take it in order.

On Minority Status/Labels
Yes, Arclightzero, I too feel as though the world would be much better served if we did not have labels and we did not have to have different groups. It is the discrimination which has caused the presence of these “minorities” (if we use the term in the sense of a group of people who do not have the same power, privilege and rights as others, i.e. Women are not a numerical “minority” but are a “minority” in the political, economic and social sense, although not so much now as in the past). I would love to see the day when lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) advocacy and lobbying groups are no longer needed; when the society has become fully equal.

On what rights the LGBT community does not have
Legal and social recognition of LGBT relationships are not the only rights lacking for the LGBT community. At present, LGBT people can be discriminated against in employment and in housing. LGBT people can have and have had their children taken away from them by courts simply because of their sexual orientation. LGBT youth continue to suffer daily torment, harassment and extreme emotional, verbal and physical bullying in schools across the nation, in districts which refuse to include sexual orientation and gender-identity in anti-bullying policies and/or enforce existing “zero-tolerance” anti-bullying policies in a fair and consistent manner. Socially, LGBT people suffer discrimination at the hands of both religious and non-religious people who seek to place LGBT people in the outer realms of society. Transgender people continue to face extreme hardship in finding adequate psychological and medical care. In many prisons, both LGB and Transgender people are denied basic rights and basic access to services which would help them to either survive in such harsh conditions or, if transgender, continue their medical treatments (hormone therapies, etc.) prescribed by licensed medical professionals.

Children and LGBT Parents
It was mentioned that “psychologically speaking” it was “better” for a child to have a mother and a father. The American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics have said time and time again children raised by LGBT parents grow up to be as emotionally and mentally well-adjusted as those children raised in two-parent, mother-father homes, as well as single parent homes. Across the board, children raised by any loving, nurturing family providing the children with the needed emotional, mental and physical needs, do indeed grow up to be well-adjusted, mentally stable, capable of friendship and companionship and contributing members of their homes, communities, schools, states, nation and world. As per the comment regarding a child’s acceptance of intimacy of LGBT parents: I’d posit that any intimacy beyond a hug or kiss is wrong to be acted upon in front of children. Amazingly, children are accepting of the love around them. Just as children are color-blind when they are born into this world and even in the most racist of societies one can see children of many races willing to befriend each other… children are also loving and accepting of almost any human difference. In my opinion, the eyes of a child are like the eyes and soul of Christ: Unconditional love without exclusion. Perhaps this is just one more reason why Christ said one must “be as a child” in order to enter the kingdom of heaven?

The “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” Policy
The Military’s “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” Policy was instituted by the US Congress and President Clinton in 1993, and was first enforced in 1994. Prior to 1993, the Military’s policy was simply, “No Homosexuals Allowed.” The “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” (DADT) Policy was crafted as a compromise between President Clinton (who wanted to lift the gay ban completely, through executive order) and a Republican Congress and Military officials who basically said, “No way.” The matter was taken out of the hands of the Office of the President and was made United States law, inserted into the Federal Code. DADT is federal law and as such, cannot be changed by executive order. In order to repeal DADT, the Congress must take action. Whew… Now that we have the history out of the way, here are the effects of DADT: Since 1994, over 11,000 servicemembers have been dismissed under the policy. That number includes dozens, if not at least 100, linguists (many of the Arabic linguists) and other personnel in “critical needs areas,” such as Homeland Security and anti-terrorism specialists. Besides the obvious fact that the DADT policy has written into a law a second-class, discriminatory position for LGBT citizens, the DADT Policy is also a very stupid, costly and unwise one. We have lost and been unable to recruit many, many individuals who have gravely needed skills and abilities. How can we be present in Iraq (whether or not if you agree with the war) and have any chance of doing what we need to do to communicate with the citizens if we are dismissing so many people skilled in the language of the region? There are two major federal laws that place LGBT citizens in a second-class category. The first is DADT. The second is the Defense of Marriage Act, something which is clearly unconstitutional as the Constitution leaves issues of the family (as well as education) to the states.

To Micky…
Yes… I believe you are trying to be a good father. I congratulate you on that and encourage you to keep doing the same. I will ask of you two things to consider: The first are the statements of the American Psychological Association and American Academy of Pediatrics as I presented them above. You can do further research if you like. The second is this notion: As a child I had no model of what a gay person in America looked like, acted like or anything. All I had were heterosexual models of living and existing. When I began to struggle with who I was and am and my identity as a person and how and where I related to this world and how the world related to me, I had no way to do that; I had never had a model of what “gay” was, except from my pastor (and this is a totally separate story, in short: he had a very hateful model - and I don’t use the word “hateful” lightly here). Children will get it. They will get other people. As far as “explaining it”… Children understand what it is to have a crush or a love or a boyfriend or a girlfriend, even if it is very limited. Just simply say to them, “These people love each other and they love each other deeply and they take care of each other like I take care of your mother.” Or if it is in response to a friend who has gay parents: “Some people have one daddy or one mommy. Some people have a mom and a dad. And some people have a mom and a mom and a dad and a dad. There are different types of families, but they are all just like ours… they love and take care of each other like I take care of you.” More than likely your kid will just say, “Okay, Daddy” and when your child grows up they will know by instinct: All people are different, but I don’t treat them differently than others.

Well said, Matt.

My point is that i dont want to ,nor do I feel like I should have to explain any of this to a 4 year old.

Matt said;
“Children will get it. They will get other people. As far as “explaining it”… Children understand what it is to have a crush or a love or a boyfriend or a girlfriend, even if it is very limited. Just simply say to them, “These people love each other and they love each other deeply and they take care of each other like I take care of your mother.” Or if it is in response to a friend who has gay parents: “Some people have one daddy or one mommy. Some people have a mom and a dad. And some people have a mom and a mom and a dad and a dad. There are different types of families, but they are all just like ours… they love and take care of each other like I take care of you.

Matt said;
” More than likely your kid will just say, “Okay, Daddy”…

Taking chances with your own kids is up to you.
“More than likely” are not good enough odds for me.

I am not saying a gay family is bad, I’m just saying that a hetero family is better.
I dont seee how I’m a biggot just because those are my feelings.

Let me preface this once again with my sincere and deep feeling that you, Micky, are truly trying to be a good father. For that you shouldn’t be faulted, but yes, some of your thinking is, well maybe “bigoted” isn’t the word for it, but definitely exclusionary and prejudiced.

Micky said:

I am not saying a gay family is bad, I’m just saying that a hetero family is better.
I dont seee how I’m a biggot just because those are my feelings.

Okay… Take “gay” and “hetero” out of that sentence and replace it with any other minority…

“I am not saying a black family is bad, I’m just saying that a white family is better.”

“I am not saying a Jewish family is bad, I’m just saying that a Christian family is better.”

“I am not saying a Palestinian family is bad, I’m just saying that an Israeli family is better.”

You see where this is going?

Again, I fully believe that you are trying to be a good dad. My father wasn’t the best of fathers, so I greatly appreciate it when I see other fathers truly trying to do what is best for their own children; I know that those children are being taken care of.

In some way, perhaps, your thinking of hetero “better” than gay… that could translate over to your kids. Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t know.

What if one of your kids grows up to be gay? I sincerely hope that you will accept him or her. But I can probably say that they are going to feel so lonely… so alone and so lost, because all they have ever seen from you is “hetero, hetero, hetero.”

But let me end on this… I don’t really know what your family is like and I’m making assumptions. I could be completely wrong about it all. Know that I don’t mean you any offense and I think you’ve made more than plenty arguments that you believe being gay is not bad… I’m just concerned about the fact you still think being straight is better.

While I would love to change your mind, micky, I’m more concerned about law. You are free to have whatever feelings on this issue you want, and you are free to raise your children how you see fit.

However, where the law comes into it, that’s where things get more cut and dried. I believe the burden of proof would be on you because you are the one advocating for the abridgement of civil rights. Do you not agree that all citizens in America have the right to marry the one they love? Do you not agree that all citizens have the right to raise children? If you do, then you need some really good reasons to take away those rights.

Now, you may feel that you shouldn’t need to explain to your children about homosexuals. Again, fine, you are free to feel that way. However, I don’t think you should take away a person’s right to marry and raise children just because you don’t want to explain things. That’s a fairly selfish argument if I take it at face value.

So again, you are free to feel how you feel, but where the law enters into it, I would hope you come out on the side of equal rights for all citizens.

Black, jewish, palestinian doesnr have anything to do with a sexual preference or lifestyle.
with all do respect, that was a piss poor analogy or comparison.
I want my kid to be raised in a heterosexual family, doesnt mean anything that you would like to believe.
And who the hell do you think you are to tell me what morals I carry because of the way I feel children should be raised.
Who on this thread has children, tell me please !
You can study children all you want and be a big old fancy shmancy author on the subject, but if you dont have any kids of your owm , you should really bow out.
.

If my wife and I died tommorow and I stipulated in my will that I want my boy to be raised in a household with a mother and father, that makes me bigot ?

You are more cruel than the accusations you put on me, for discrimating against my right to see that my child is raised the way I see fit.
You are discriminating against me for envoking my parental rights and duties.
You should be ashamed of yourself for using the word ‘BIGOT” so loosely just to get your point across.

Who the hell are any of you to cast judgement on me ?

Once again, I dont see any reason why I have to prove my point to anyone.
I’m not the one looking for something. Its the gay community that is asking for certain things, not me.
So they must prove to us the validity in their claims.
And I have seen more proof to back up a hetero family, than a gay one. I will raise my kid by the example of the most proof out there, like it or not.

If I am going to be referd to as bigot just because you dont see it my way, I most definatly will not be posting here any more.

Micky, I’ve been very careful to chose my words wisely and I believe that I have done more than enough to make clear to you that I mean no offense and that I truly and sincerely believe that you are doing what is best for your children.

You say my analogy to other minorities is wrong because of my “sexual preference” and “lifestyle.” My sexual orientation was neither chosen by me nor voluntarily entered into by me. It is a part of who I am, just as a person who is black, white, red, Jewish, whatever, whatever.

Micky, you are showing more and more that some of your thoughts may very well be based in larger prejudices and ignorances. You believe I am living a “lifestyle” I have chosen and had “preference” for. That kind of thinking usually goes hand-in-hand with “hetero is better than gay.”

I’ve been very kind so far Micky, but now I must go ahead and just blurt it out: YES you are being bigoted. To say that any group of people are better than another is bigotry. It is this kind of thinking that underlines the hate and bigotry of racism, sexism and anti-semitism.

“Whites are better than blacks” = Slavery, KKK, Jim Crow and Institutionalized segregation

“The Aryan race is better than the Jews” = Holocaust

“Sane people are better than crazy people” = Cruel Asylums, labotamies, eugenics

“Hetero is better than gay” = Institutionalized segregation and discrimination, crimes committed for the sole purpose of killing “fags,” “God Hates Fags,” “Ex-Gay ” ministries that prey on youth telling them being dead is better than being gay and so on and so on.

_____ person/people is/are better than _____ person/people is ALWAYS a bigoted argument, if that argument is based simply upon who people are, as they were born.

Offering a child a male and female role model in his life as opposed to just male or just female is bigotry?

This is just stupidity, to say that the two scenarios are equal in offerings for the child.
Lets worry more about gay rights rather than whats best for a child ?
You guys need your heads examined.
Part of intelligent design whether its spiritual or not is for that child to be born and then raised by its parents if possible at all.
We have been doing it this way for centuries, and now

I’m a bigot because I have preference in child rearing?

No,.. I’m a bigot because I dont see it your way, thats what it is.
I think brunettes are better lovers than any other kind of woman, is that bigoted ?
Black people tend to be better musicians, am I bigoted ?
Chinese people are better martial artist ?
It mat not be true, but it seems they excel in that area,
is it because of cultural influences that I say that , or bigotry?
You guys need to learn the difference between a choice and discrimination.

My choice doesnt match yours, so I’m a bigot ?
Go to hell.

Matt why dont you go yo my blog, read some of my shit and then tell me I’m a bigot, fair enough ?

http://micky2.wordpress.com/

Whew… I don’t even know where to start!

At least we can agree that breaking people up into sub-groups is not a good thing.

However…

See, this is a common problem with the liberals out there, and I was disappointed to see it here. You are quick to call people bigots when they render opinions that are different than yours. Just because somebody feels that his children should be raised one way or another doesn’t make him a bigot. If a parent doesn’t want his children exposed to things that are outside of the mainstream until they are old enough to understand it, it’s his choice. It doesn’t make him a bigot or a bad man. It makes him smart and responsible. Children need to be carefully introduced to the real world. You cannot just inundate them with everything and hope that they can deal with them. That’s not responsible parenting. If Micky or any other parent wants to wait until their children are older before they introduce them to things like GLBT lifestyles or whatever, then so be it. You could label him a bigot if he disapproved of the lifestyle and chose to teach his children to disapprove as well. Since Micky clearly approves of the lifestyle and wants to teach his children in his own way, there is really no reason to fault him.

As far as the military thing goes. As I always maintain, if you’ve never been in the military, you have no place to give anything but your own opinion on how you think things should work. The reality of the situation is far different from your opinions however. It’s reality vs. optimism, and whereas it would be nice if the two were one in the same, that isn’t always the case. When military officials fight against open sexuality, they aren’t doing it because they are bigots and assholes. They are doing it because they know better than most of the people who are fighting against them. In a perfect world, gays could serve openly. However, this isn’t a perfect world. People argue that the Brits can serve openly, and I always argue back that the British military isn’t made up of people from West Texas and Alabama. DADT is a good compromise because it allows people who are gay to serve so long as they don’t flaunt it in front of anybody. It’s when they decide to sit down and tall his redneck coworker about the guy they blew last night that there gets to be trouble. Is it right? No, of course not, but it’s reality, and we have to deal with reality much more so than we deal with optimism. Hell, be happy women are allowed to serve. Believe me, it’s more trouble than it’s worth, and I question women being allowed in. They have a hard enough time dealing with the problems that women have introduced into the military… Do we really want to add another complication?

Being a realist doesn’t make people like Micky and me bigots. Neither of us has any problems with gays or the gay lifestyle, we just have a better grasp on overall human nature than the ever optimistic people out there who think that you can force things down people’s throats and they will just be “ok” with it…

Arclight and micky, I’ll just clarify once again. Yes, you are free to have bigoted (or realist if you prefer) views on sexuality. However, when that belief enters the legal world, that’s where things go wrong. So, you can feel children are better served by hetero parents, but if you can’t back that up with facts, you have no right to tell homosexuals how to raise THEIR kids. You can feel that marriage is strictly between a man and a woman, but equal protection in the U.S. says that everyone gets the the same rights and seperate is not equal.

I’ll repeat it again, you are free to think how you want, no matter how discriminatory that might be. However, if you use that thinking to advocate for unequal laws, then you’ve gone beyond bigotry into straight up discrimination. I would hope nobody here crosses that line.

Look,
I think its absolutly beautiful that two men who truly love each other can find a life of commitment and be happy. I want everybody to be happy;
But , if my personal feeling that a child is best served by both a female and male role as opposed to just one type of role model makes me a bigot, then I will take my business elsewhere.
I think that my son would best be served by his mother and his father. Does that make me a bigot ?
Most children in this country are best served by their real parents, right ? I mean are you honestly going argue that ?
Because I choose one form of education over another, I am a bigot
As a matter of fact it is you who should really reconsider your choice of words for me.

Might be interesting if we asked kids that are about 6 or 7 what they think the perfect family should be like. If they didnt see it your way, would they be bigots also ?

Well, again, thinking that way I feel is wrong, but you’re free to do it. However:

Most children in this country are best served by their real parents, right ? I mean are you honestly going argue that ?

Unless you can prove things like this, that just makes it your (bad) opinion. As for asking 6 or 7 year olds, as Matt has pointed out above, the AMA and others have shown that kids growing up in homosexual families are just as well adjusted as those that grow up in hetero families. That’s an endorsement from the highest medical authority in the U.S. You got some better proof?

The AMA and APA are, for the most part, full of crap. At one point in time they may have been good solid authorities on things, but these days I question their objectivity. But that is neither here nor there.

What irks me, and why this argument keeps perpetuating is that you feel the need to tell Micky and I that our opinions are “bad” or “bigoted”. However, I don’t understand how it is we can be bigoted if we accept the gay lifestyle and culture but would choose to address it differently when it comes to children? I could understand the “bigot” label if we had turned our noses up and said that gay was bad and we were going to teach our kids that it was bad… But quite the contrary, neither of us have said anything of the sort. All we have said is that we would prefer to handle the education and indoctrination of our children as we see fit.

As far as who makes batter parents, I don’t think it’s fair to say one makes better parents than the other. However, there are aspects of a child’s life that must be learned from a father and certain aspects that must be learned from a father. Take any basic upper-level personality development course in college and you will recognize that a developing child needs both. If [somehow] a gay couple can provide those same things, then great, but I don’t rightly understand how they can. They may be able to provide a loving, stable household for their child, but there are things that will be missing by the very nature of things.

I would not ever consider myself a bigot for saying things like this. I am speaking from a purely objective and educational perspective, not from an emotional perspective. From an emotional perspective, by all means, let any stable, loving couple have a child… But reason must always overcome emotion.

Okay, thats it,
You guys are out of your fucking minds.
Are you actually with any sense of clarity going to argue with thousands of years of evolution behind the progress of man that the way we have been raising our children should not be the best means of proof so far ?
My proof is this,{ not that I have to prove anything to you}
Hundreds of millions of people who are here now on this earth have ben raised by heterosexual homes. Gay homes that raise children dont come close to those numbers.
The simple math is that there is more proof on my behalf.
I out number you in realistic examples 1 to a 100.

So I guess the whole history of evolution is biggoted ?

You two men are the real honest to God genuine bigots in this picture.
First of all I’ll bet you dont have your own kids or have a clue what its like to raise one, not a clue. Which is all the more reason for you to realize that my opinion will always trump yours untill you have your own child.
You cannot be expected to understand untill you have your own kids.
Oh ! but you read a book about it from some guy who doesnt have his own kids and now you’re a fucking expert ?
You are the absolute BIGOTS for passing judgement on something you have never had to experience.
If you havnt experienced something, how can you judge it better than if you hadnt experienced it ?
Please tell me.
Untill then, if I recieve no apology, I will take my business elsewhere.

Again, I’m trying to keep this clear. With respect to how you raise your children, you raise them however you want. I may think it is wrong, but that’s my right to think that way too.

But if you want to tell me how to raise MY kids, and who I can and cannot get married to, then you’d better back that up with proof that alternative lifestyles are harmful. The common sense argument just doesn’t hold water here.

And arclightzero, that goes for you too. If you don’t believe in the AMA and the APA, fine, but I’ve yet to see one respected, peer-reviewed study that says gay families are inherently harmful for children. If you can bring one to my attention, I’d love to read it.

I am a republican that feels it is the better goverment for my country and that a democratic goverment is not.
Iguess that would make me a biggot too, right ?

Then you to are also bigots for thinking that the democratic way of governing is better.
You are discriminating against republicans because their views are different.
Your saying that if you think that what you have is better, it is a biggoted view and statement, right ?

To make a decision of preference is biggotry. ?
If I want to raise my child as catholic and not a buddist I am bigot ?

Goodbye.

None of those are bigotted because they are choices. You have a choice to be democratic or republican, and you have a choice on what religion to raise your child. You make your choice, that’s not a problem. Denying rights to people based on an uncontrollabe outcome of genetics/birth is bigoted. I wish I could see it any other way, but there’s really no room to move here…

J-ro said;
“The common sense argument just doesn’t hold water here.”

This is a first!
And as Rosie said; ” For the first time in the history of the world, fire has melted steel “!

You also said;
“but I’ve yet to see one respected, peer-reviewed study that says gay families are inherently harmful for children. If you can bring one to my attention, I’d love to read it.”

Who the fuck said anything about a gay household being harmful to a child? Show me where ?

Who the fuck said anything about a gay household being harmful to a child? Show me where ?

That’s what you’ve been saying this whole time:

What is bigoted about not wanting my boy to see one man kissing another?
Watching two men be intimate { not necessarily sex}is going to be a lot harder for a 8 year old boy to process than watching mommy and daddy.
There’s poor gay people that fight too much also, but to top it of , they are gay.

I find it ridiculous that anybody could argue that a Homosexual household can raise a child just as well as a heterosexual couple could. Its just absurd.

Taking chances with your own kids is up to you.
“More than likely” are not good enough odds for me.
I am not saying a gay family is bad, I’m just saying that a hetero family is better.

I think that my son would best be served by his mother and his father.

So, if you don’t think gay households are harmful to a child, why do you think gays shouldn’t be able to adopt?

Choices ???
What? I cant make a choice now without being called a bigot ?
You just made my arguement and point for me

I choose not to raise my kid around a situation as you described ;”an uncontrollabe outcome of genetics/birth ”
That does not make me a bigot.

Hmmm … lets see.
Should I raise my kid around an uncontrolled outcome of genetics. Or an outcome that is normal.
I guess you couldnt really answer that honestly because you dont have kids of your own.
Oh , wait a minute, I just discriminated against you.
Fuck ! now I’m a bigot !

J-ro said;
“That’s what you’ve been saying this whole time:
Once again,
Where did I say that a gay household is harmful to a child?

You also said;
“So, if you don’t think gay households are harmful to a child, why do you think gays shouldn’t be able to adopt?”

Now show me where I said this ?
I never said anything like this.
As a matter of fact I said; ” I am sure a gay couple could do very good job of raising a child”

Now your just making shit up.

Well look, let’s get off of what you want to do with your kids (though I’d hope that if they were homosexual, you’d accept them). Let’s talk policy.

Beyond what you choose to do with your kids, do you think gay people should be allowed equal marriages under the law (either marriages for everyone or civil unions for everyone, not two classes of unions)? (I’m not talking about churches here, just the law.)

Do you think gay people should be allowed to adopt if they pass all the other tests set forward by adoption agencies?

For me, the answer is clear. We have the right in American to marry and raise children no matter who we are. If I want to take away those rights, I have to have a reason based on more than choice.

You asked me;
“Do you think gay people should be allowed to adopt if they pass all the other tests set forward by adoption agencies?”

YES.

Also;
“Well look, let’s get off of what you want to do with your kids (though I’d hope that if they were homosexual, you’d accept them).”

I most certainly would accept them and support them equaly.

Also;
“(either marriages for everyone or civil unions for everyone, not two classes of unions)?”

I dont care about this issue , I made it clear yesterday.
Give equal rights to all, fuck the labels.
Its the church that worries, not me. And you personally know that I dont give a rats ass about organized religion.

You also said;
“Let’s talk policy.”

I say no ! Lets not.
Lets answer my questions put forth to you in post #35 first ! and not change the subject as long as I am being referd to as a bigot.

All right, here’s my answer.

I still think you hold bigotted ideas. However, I’m sure I do too. We strive to think of all people as equal, but that is quite a challenge sometimes. The true test of character is not whether you think in discriminatory ways, but whether you act on them. Because you support equal rights for homosexuals, even though you may not be entirely comfortable or open to the idea yourself, that speaks highly of your character. I try to live my life exactly the same way.

If you examine your own prejudices enough, we are all bigots. So it is more what we do than what we think that makes us who we are, and I’m really glad you have the courage to stand up for the rights of those who are different from yourself. You’ve made it clear that you are standing on the right side of the law and the American ideals. I’m proud to stand with you there.

J-ro said;
“I still think you hold bigotted ideas. However, I’m sure I do too.”

Now its O.K. to call me a bigot because you think we are both bigots?

J-ro sais;
“The true test of character is not whether you think in discriminatory ways, but whether you act on them.”

By voicing my opinion, I am acting on a discriminatory basis? So I deserve to be called a bigot ?

You also said;
“You’ve made it clear that you are standing on the right side of the law and the American ideals. I’m proud to stand with you there.”

Thank you for your consideration and pride in me.
But I still want an apology.

I don’t think I can give an apology, because I do think your thoughts were wrong. I have them too, but of course that doesn’t make it any better really. I work to make sure those thoughts don’t turn into actions, and I work to revise my worldview so I don’t think in discriminatory ways.

I suggest you take a long look at some of the things you said in this thread. Maybe you should show this thread to your homosexual friend and see what he says. I know you didn’t mean harm, but he might be able to show you exactly what went wrong here.

Don’t feed the trolls!

What trolls? I didn’t see any trolls here. I see some good debate going on, but certainly no trolls…

Although I will say that this debate has gotten a bit absurd. Strangely, we are all on the same page with most of the issues, we just see things from slightly different perspectives. As for me, I don’t care how somebody finds love in their lives. They can love a man a woman or a goat. It’s all good by me. Anybody who can find love and enjoy a healthy relationship gets my blessing.

As far as politics and policies go, sure, fine, civil unions for all. Good. Great. It’s pretty much that way anyway. You get married by the state, not the church. The church just gives you its blessing and announces your marriage in the eyes of god. Your butt still belongs to the state though. If people want the same legal rights, then fine. But stop trying to sue churches for bigotry or whatever when they don’t recognize or don’t want to perform gay marriages. Recognizing civil unions should not be a blanketing thing. Leave the church out of it. If a church does open its doors to gays and will marry gays, then fine. But don’t ever try to force the issue with anybody but the state.

As far as parenting goes, who cares? Parents are free to raise their kids as they see fit. If that means that they want to expose their children to the gay culture on their own terms, then so be it. Personally, I wouldn’t want my kids exposed to hetero sex either, and would certainly monitor TV and other means of exposure until I thought the kid was ready to understand. I am not gay. I don’t mind gays, but I would certainly have a hard time trying to explain to a young child why some people prefer same sex partners and others don’t. It’s hard enough to tackle conventional relationships!

Regarding how a child grows up… I’m in the same but opposite end of the boat as you. I would like to see studies done by parties that are slightly more neutral than the ACLU before I change my mind. It’s hard to be objective when you’re advocating for a certain outcome, which most of the research I have read comes from organizations who set out to prove that it’s ok. That makes them subjective and dismissable.

Josh said;
“Dont feed the trolls!”

I have been posting almost everyday on this blog for 6 months now. I even have “MY OWN” articles printed on this blog as a guest writer, and now I’m being called a troll by one of the other contributors to this blog?
And bigot by the editor.
Also,… I referd archlitzero to this blog. I told him you guys were cool and that it was one of the more civil democratic blogs.
Well, The Seminal has embaressed me.
I wont ever send anyone here again.

J-ro said;
“I work to make sure those thoughts don’t turn into actions,’

Well you failed miserably !By your own admittion you thought I was a bigot and then you acted on it and opened your mouth and called me one.

Will you apologize to yourself for calling yourself a bigot ?
I never called gays or you any names.
But I am called a name because I disagree.
How ridiculous is that ?

Troll - An individual who regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.

I am not saying a gay family is bad, I’m just saying that a hetero family is better.

Prejudice - An attitude acquired prior to relevant experience or knowledge; a predisposition to take an intellectual position relative to a given phenomenon irrespective of the nature or amount of relevant objective information. Prejudice has also been defined as a “preconceived judgment or opinion, often based on limited information.” This attitude denies a person’s individuality.

To be called married, and have their marriage blessed in the eyes of God they have a long road in front of them.

All men were created equal Micky. Yes, even gay ones.

I find it ridiculous that anybody could argue that a Homosexual household can raise a child just as well as a heterosexual couple could. Its just absurd.

Intolerance - Not tolerating other people’s views, beliefs, or way of life.

At the age of 4 or 5 a kid with gay parents will notice that his family is a little different.And he WILL ask questions. So now… we have to start explaining things ?

We call that… parenting.

Okay, thats it,
You guys are out of your fucking minds.

First of all I’ll bet you dont have your own kids or have a clue what its like to raise one, not a clue. Which is all the more reason for you to realize that my opinion will always trump yours untill you have your own child.

Troll - An individual who regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.
YOU CAME INTO THIS CALLING ME TROLL RIGHT OFF THE BAT. AND I AM A REGULAR CONTRIBUTOR TO THIS BLOG. YOU ARE ACTUALLY DOING THE TROLLING, YOU POST HALF AS MUCH AS I DO. MY DEBATE WAS WITH MATT AND J-RO.

I am not saying a gay family is bad, I’m just saying that a hetero family is better.

THERES PLENTY TO PROVE IT,WHAT ABOUT YOUR FAMILY?
Prejudice - An attitude acquired prior to relevant experience or knowledge; a predisposition to take an intellectual position relative to a given phenomenon irrespective of the nature or amount of relevant objective information. Prejudice has also been defined as a “preconceived judgment or opinion, often based on limited information.” This attitude denies a person’s individuality.

To be called married, and have their marriage blessed in the eyes of God they have a long road in front of them.

All men were created equal Micky. Yes, even gay ones.

EQUAL, YEA. BLESSED IN MARRIGE BY GOD, NO. TRY PICKING UP ANY BIBLE.

I find it ridiculous that anybody could argue that a Homosexual household can raise a child just as well as a heterosexual couple could. Its just absurd.

Intolerance - Not tolerating other people’s views, beliefs, or way of life.
I WONT TOLERATE PEOLPE WHO HAVNT READ ALL THE POSTS IVE ENTERD IN THIS BLOG,YOUR HEAD IS UP YOUR ASS.

At the age of 4 or 5 a kid with gay parents will notice that his family is a little different.And he WILL ask questions. So now… we have to start explaining things ?

We call that… parenting.

Okay, thats it,
You guys are out of your fucking minds.
YOU ARE !
First of all I’ll bet you dont have your own kids or have a clue what its like to raise one, not a clue. Which is all the more reason for you to realize that my opinion will always trump yours untill you have your own child.
LIKE IVE SAID BEFORE, IF I WANT A GOOD STEAK I’LL TAKE MY BUTCHERS WORD FOR IT INSTEAD OF SHOVING MY HEAD UP A BULLS ASS.
i AM AN EXPERIENCED PARENT WHO IS MORE QUALFIED THAN SOMEONE WHO ISNT EXPERIENCED TO OPINE ON THE SUBJECT OF CHILD RAISING.
SO UNTILL THEN YOU SHOULD REALLY BACK OFF.
bUT IT DOESNT MATTER REALLY.
What was more important was that J-ro answer me, not babysitting Josh.
Since nobody can do that I’ll leave you to yourselves.

I have to take care of my family now.{know what that’s like?} We have a cat.3 hurricane due on tues eve.

Its been real, se ya !

Micky,

I have to ask that you refrain from typing in all caps and using unnecessary profanity. Quite frankly, it is sloppy and unconvincing, and it drags the level of discourse around here to a new low IMHO.

1) The fact that my heterosexual parents raised me well does not constitute proof that heterosexual parents are “better than” homosexual ones. This is called causal oversimplification. Causal oversimplification, or the fallacy of the single cause, is a logical fallacy of causation that occurs when it is assumed that there is one, simple cause of an outcome when in reality it may have been caused by a number of causes.

2. I don’t think anyone here has argued that the church should be required to marry anyone. The ‘marriage’ we are advocating for is a legal civil marriage, recognized by government as such. I quoted the Declaration of Independence, you referred to the bible. I really don’t see the connection.

3. Believe it or not Micky, I’ve read every single thing you’ve posted here. I’m not sure why I bothered, but that is a different story.

4. So wait, you are saying someone has to be qualified to opine on something now. You spewed plenty of falsehoods and straight garbage a few weeks ago regarding global warming. Does the fact that I work in the environmental community and have far more knowledge than you on the subject mean that your opinion doesn’t count? Does having kids make you de facto more knowledgeable when it comes to child rearing? Does Britney Spears know more about raising children than I do? Does Chris Benoit? A pedophile?

If you are going to respond, please do so by making your points calmly and clearly. When you are all over the place, talking about babysitting me and my head being up my ass, it is difficult to take you seriously. If you can’t do that, I’ll probably just go back to ignoring you, and I suspect others will too.

I keep getting e-mails from josh.
You guys dont get it do you?
I’m outa here. get it ?
You’re going on my spam list.

I was called names by you and your staff first! read the thread asshole!

Great god almighty you cant even read!

Cancelling subscription to comments

Well… I’m sorry Micky feels offended.

I feel offended too. He’s said that his family would be better than mine (if I ever chose to have kids). He has said that my family would not be normal. Numerous people have continued, including Micky, have continued to call who I am as a person a “lifestyle,” “choice,” and “preference.”

And, as far as I can tell Micky is the only one who has consistently come here and been very confrontational. I spoke very kindly almost every time I spoke and even commended him on doing what he thought was best for his kids.

I don’t get why he is so upset. And, I never called him a bigot… I just said some of his thoughts were… and another commenter is right: When we break it all down, each and every one of us has some sort of bigoted and prejudiced thought or notion. We are all guilty of it… it just so happened it was this one time that Micky got called out on it.

If a person can’t handle what might come in response to his words, then he shouldn’t speak. Speak up and be ready to receive criticism or just be quiet.

I wasn’t going to weigh in on this discussion, but maybe I should chime in with an “official Seminal perspective,” insofar as I can claim to speak for the entire staff.

The Seminal staff welcomes dissent, and given the diverse viewpoints we hold as individuals, we disagree with each other often. Yet a core value we all hold is that our site is a safe space for individuals of different races, religious backgrounds, genders, ages, sexual orientations, etc. While we want to promote lively and profound discussions, we will always defend the core value of not just tolerating, but affirming the worth of people from different backgrounds.

So while people who are opposed to gay marriage or gay rights in general are welcome to make intellectual arguments for their positions on our site, we will react firmly and negatively to what we perceive as intolerant language that is directed against groups because of personal bias.

And while we’re at it, let’s avoid name-calling and personal attacks as much as possible.

In defense to my husband Micky. I have to say he is not a bigot. He might be the biggest asshole I’ve ever known but bigot he is not.
Just because anyone thinks that a child would do best with a mother and father does not make them a bigot. I read all the comments and he said nothing wrong until he was called a bigot. This is all I have to say.

The Seminals notification of comments or e-mails were being sent to my spam box since a couple of days ago.
Unfortunatly on my last comment I checked the notification box out of habit I guess.

So I decide to read the spam from the Seminal, hoping it was an apology, guess not.
Although its very touching that my wife is comming to my defense,and I have always told her how cool your site was even though sometimes you guys piss me off. I think we all clearly know from experience that I can take care of myself.

But while I’m here I cant help but notice Ish’s post.
With all due respect and acknowledging the Seminals rules of conduct I still have to say that this is bullshit.So I will address these points to J-ro and Ish.

“J-ro Says:
Micky, you dissapoint me. That was one of the most ignorant and hateful things I’ve read in a while. Sorry man, but I gotta call you out on that.”

Micky says; THIS IS WHERE IT STARTED !
Basically you called me ignorant and hatefull, this is where the gloves came off. This is where you broke your own rules. It was a personal attack. You can weave and dodge and use all the semantics and word games you want, it was a personal attack. I have made this mistake on your blog before , and I apologized.

J-ro said;
“As for children, that’s simple bigotry right there.

Micky says; Count #1

J-ro said;
“My answer here is the same as above. If you can prove it, then it isn’t a bigotted idea.

Micky says;COUNT #2, I’m a bigot again !
You are making the accusation of bigotry. In this country it is incumbent upon the accuser to show proof,not me.
I made no accusations of anything at all.

J-ro said;
“Prove it. Until you do, it is bigotry.”

Micky says; COUNT #3 I’m a bigot again !

J-ro said;COUNT #4, I’m a bigot again !
“you’ve gone beyond bigotry into straight up discrimination.

J-ro said;
“But if you want to tell me how to raise MY kids, and who I can and cannot get married to, then you’d better back that up with proof that alternative lifestyles are harmful.
Micky says; I never ever said who anyone could or should marry,or how to raise your kids, and I never said alternative lifestyles were harmful. But I can find a bunch that are.

J-ro said
So, if you don’t think gay households are harmful to a child, why do you think gays shouldn’t be able to adopt?

Micky says;
I never said that either.

J-ro said;
“None of those are bigotted because they are choices. You have a choice to be democratic or republican, and you have a choice on what religion to raise your child. You make your choice, that’s not a problem. Denying rights to people based on an uncontrollabe outcome of genetics/birth is bigoted.

Micky says;COUNT #5, I’m a bigot again !
“I am not denying or even suggesting that anyone be denied these rights , but you keep saying I do.

J-ro said;
“I still think you hold bigotted ideas”

Micky says;COUNT #6, I’m a bigot again !

J-ro said;
“Maybe you should show this thread to your homosexual friend and see what he says. I know you didn’t mean harm, but he might be able to show you exactly what went wrong here.
Micky says;I will actually put you in touch with him if you think I’m bullshiting you.
I did ,and he clearly can see how you all miss the point.
He thinks that a child raised by a mother and father is an ideal situation for a child.
And that gays who adopt are a blessing to society for giving good nurturing homes to kids that otherwise would be in orpanages. He see’s nothing bigoted about having a prefernce.
Ish said;
“our site is a safe space for individuals of different races, religious backgrounds, genders, ages, sexual orientations, etc.”

Is it safe for married people with children ?

Also Ish I might add that you yourself have gone off the deep end a couple times with me. Although it was not a personal attack, you said that you hated Bush and that he was a murderer and a war criminal. These are really serious accusations , and you have no proof, just an opinion, just like me.

And then there is the issue with Matt.

Matt said;
“Children will get it. They will get other people”

Micky says;
Only if you shove your beliefs down their throught!
You get your info from all these reputable sources and you say something like this ?
You generalize every kid in the world?
You also made a point to say that all you had to do was explain things to them and they would be O.K. with it.
First of all you make this assumption and dont even know what the childs question will be.
Second of all I might point out that you think it’s o.k to put a kid in position and its o.k. as long as you explain it. Did it occure to you that you should ask the child that is old enough to be preached to, can also be asked his preference without being called a bigot ?
If hes old enough to understand your explanation of a gay household, isnt he old enough to express a wish and have a valid opinion?

Also , you like to make things up also.
Heres the proof, I never implied or said these things.
#1
feel offended too. He’s said that his family would be better than mine (if I ever chose to have kids). He has said that my family would not be normal.{NEVER SAID THAT}

Matt said;COUNT #7
YES you are being bigoted

Matt said;

I never called him a bigot… I just said some of his thoughts were…

Micky says; This is a perfect example of the little word games you like to play. Can you read minds as well now?
Besides that look above at your last statement, count #7
In order to be biggoted I must be a bigot, right Matt?
Thats basic english and you lost your case miserably.
You called me bigot

Ish said;
And while we’re at it, let’s avoid name-calling and personal attacks as much as possible.

Coming from Ish?

And to top it all off, Josh popcorn farts his way in and calls me a troll and starts rambling of a bunch of crap that really had little to do with anything or the subject.

I told you in the beggining I didnt want to do the political thing with you, and this is why.

I do apologize for the personal attack. I should have been more clear. My intent was to say that your postings represented a bigoted attitude. It would be overgeneralization to call you a bigot. Your thoughts on this particular issue right now on this website are. You, as an entire person, are most certainly not.

Again, this isn’t an attack on you, only your particular postings on this thread. I hope that clarification can help clear the air.

I’d like to amend that and add that just because you have made some offensive statements on this thread doesn’t mean I don’t think you’re worth talking to or your opinions aren’t valid in general. People can be wrong (I know I have been) and people are allowed to write things that they want. It would be a shame to lose you completely over this, as you are a valuable member of this community. In fact, I just ran into an old friend on Sunday who loved your writings on religion.

I appreciate that immensely.

I am sorry about my temper. But only to certain extent.
I will also ask that you and your staff realize that I am 9 times out of 10 the only conflicting voice on these threads, so give me a break.

Absolutely. That conflicting voice is essential, IMO.

Duh, whats a IMO ?

IMO = in my opinion

And I have never on this website said that I hate Bush.

You need to quote people when you accuse them of things.

Ish, we had a little spat on a “different” thread about a month ago. And I’m sorry but I’m a real crappy navigator, I couldnt find it.
You never attacked me personally anywhere, but sometimes you are the pot calling the kettle black.

The reason I bring you up is because you represent the staff that wrote the rules you sometimes break yourselves.

I myself am old school, before P.C.
I have no problem with a good ole fuck, shit,and piss here and there. But I have to remember where I am.
This is why I do my best to apologize.
And I think it is more advantageous to let it out and make yourself clear as offensive as it might be, but you MUST apologize in the end for the offense.
This I believe is a way better way to communicate rather than walking around on eggshells with a big dictionary in your hand.
I see it constantly,…you know what the guy wants to or is trying to say, and he is borderline there, but that one little rule is keeping from making himself 100% clear.
Anyway, I gotta go take down all this hurricane shit I had to put up.
Tell Al it was just a little storm that fell apart.

PEACE.

And I have never on this website said that I hate Bush.

You need to quote people when you accuse them of things.

I cant back it up, your right.Sorry, might be my loss of brain cells
But I did make it clear you never attacked me personally.

I went to the link that ish supplied above, and yea, I have to say that is where you got a little prejudgemental and contemptuous.

Yeah Micky… you did say that my family and that being gay isn’t normal. You complain of being offended and people attacking you but you do it so well yourself!

Micky said: “Should I raise my kid around an uncontrolled outcome of genetics. Or an outcome that is normal.”

Implication: Being gay is not normal.

Lets get one thing straight , it was aquote from J-ro

not me.

J-ro said;
“Denying rights to people based on an uncontrollabe outcome of genetics/birth is bigoted.”

Matt said
“Your thoughts were bigoted. You were *being* bigoted, but I never said, “Micky is a bigot.””

Stop playing games Matt ! Hiding behind PC semantics doesnt float with me, any fool knows what you are saying.
I am more than twice your age,I stopped playing that game in high school.
If you are “BEING” dead you are dead. That is how English works.
You just cant handle the fact that I think an ideal situation for a child is with a mother and father.

I went to your website and found out that you have only been an adult for two years. You work with kids and that is a good thing.
But it does not make you an expert with your whole 2 years of experience as an adult around kids.
I work with familys of addicts and alcoholics. And pay special attention to the kids needs and am very active in placing them elsewhere while their 1 or 2 parents recover.And the adoption or foster agencys take preference to hetero sexual homes for the kids. Most definatly if it is what the child is accustomed to.
If the child is to young to of established anykind of indoctrinated concepts he is simply sent to the first household than is in compliance,regardless of gender.
I have been doing this for over 15 years. As a matter of fact I have certificates of gratitude from DSS in Riverside for being so good at it.
Plus I have raised two well rounded kids of my own and previous to that was a nanny 3 years for a home with 3 girls and boy with fetal alcohol syndrome.

So please, I think I can speak a little more intelligently on the needs of kids than you without being called a bigot.

Matt said;
Micky said: “Should I raise my kid around an uncontrolled outcome of genetics. Or an outcome that is normal.”

Implication: Being gay is not normal.

It isnt normal in the definition of the word itself.
And alot of hetero familys are not normal either.
But if we are to talk of choices for a child, a home with both role models offers 50% more choices in the area of sexual societal role modeling
Also if you look at the sequence in the threads I did not become indignant untill I had been personally attacked by being called a bigot in more ways than one by you and others.
I have put this behind me and made my peace with J-Ro, and this is where it ends.
If you would like to speak to my gay freind Leon I will put you in touch with him. He is 60 years old and knows a thing or two more about the lifestyle and life in general than you do.
That simply comes with life experiences and is not a biggoted view of you.

I’m sorry Micky… who I am is not a “lifestyle.” Your 60 your old gay friend could certainly tell me about *his* life, but certainly not about mine. Trotting out your one gay friend who might happen to agree with you isn’t a good way to back up your views. As for me… I’ve got the entire medical and psychological establishment standing behind the *facts* I’ve related in this thread.

Oh… and as far as me “only” being an adult for two years… Yeah, I may be young, but I’ve been on the receiving end of this horribly discriminatory and prejudiced society since I came out at 14. There sure are a whole hell of a lot of things that I’ve been denied, based solely on who I am just because people don’t think I’m “normal,” or they think I’m a pervert or that I deserve to have nothing but death.

Matt says;
“but I’ve been on the receiving end of this horribly discriminatory and prejudiced society since I came out at 14. There sure are a whole hell of a lot of things that I’ve been denied, based solely on who I am just because people don’t think I’m “normal,” or they think I’m a pervert or that I deserve to have nothing but death.”

I feel for you. But you obviously have the tenacity and pride to make it.

Matt said;
I’m sorry Micky… who I am is not a “lifestyle.”

There you go with the semantic word games again.

Who you are and what you are is an existance that dictates yours or anyones lifestyle, unless you are absolutly not being honest with yourself.
Who you are is a combination of engraved genetic characteristics and life events combined to produce a personality. This procedure is usually never complete till you die. But it is responsable for taking you where you go in life, thus determining lifestyle.

Also;
“Your 60 your old gay friend could certainly tell me about *his* life, but certainly not about mine. Trotting out your one gay friend who might happen to agree with you isn’t a good way to back up your views”

Another word game and blatent distortion.
I said he knows more about the lifestyle and life in general. I thought you would be humble enough to hear another view from someone who definatly understands the gay communities hardships. Imagine what he had to go through 45 years ago.

Also;
“I’ve got the entire medical and psychological establishment standing behind the *facts* I’ve related in this thread.”

The entire establishment ? Wow !

Now you are really reaching deep and overstating.
Every animal has an ideal designation of how to be raised.
Note the word “designation”. It is derived from the word “design”.
I am talking about natures design. When nature fails in this case we as intelligent humans compensate for it.
And so this is why I think its great that gays adopt children. And I think it should be easier for them to do it.
But I still stand by my belief based on natures plan that a childs ideal household would be with a mother and father.

It may just be me, but I think the Chicago Cubs made the right move by re-signing Pitcher Carlos Zambrano to a major deal through 2013. He’s the ace, never gets hurt, play to win the game…oh man, am I on the wrong website again? dammit.

I just want to say that I really enjoyed reading the whole thread. I love the way J-Ro writes!!
This has been one of the best ones I’ve ever read.
Nite nite.