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Public School Haters Never Let Facts Get in the Way |
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What would you say if I told you America has one of the best public school systems in the world? Would you believe it, or would you say that I must be either joking, completely nuts, or possibly on some strong meds? You might say that I’ve missed the news about how bad our public schools have become, or that our graduates simply aren’t prepared to compete in the changing world economy. Or that our students consistently score below most of their counterparts from other developed nations on standardized tests. Or that our teachers are simply an extension of some wacko union that’s only concerned with self-preservation and the status quo. You’ve all heard the supposed facts that are used to bash our public schools.
Maybe you’d say that the only way to improve our failing public schools is to hit them where it hurts. You know, to take money directly away from them and give it to unproven, under-qualified, sometimes corrupt charter schools. Or maybe you think that our public dollars should be used to subsidize private schools, where teaching is viewed more as a charitable endeavor than a sustainable career. Whatever the fodder being used to disparage our nation’s public schools happens to be at any given moment, you can bet one thing is certain. The overwhelming majority of pubic school haters (PSHers) haven’t stepped foot in a public school in years.
Because if they had, they would see the public schools I’ve come to know after eight years of teaching in them. The same schools that take kids from the most diverse backgrounds in the history of mankind and mold them into productive, well prepared, and mostly, all around good Americans. Americans that go on to graduate from the best universities in the world. Americans that help to make up the second highest college graduation rate in the worldâ€â€ahead of Japan, and far outpacing Germany and the United Kingdom.
The same Americans that fill the vast majority of jobs in the world’s biggest, most diverse, and arguably most technologically advanced economy. American’s that go on to work in one of the world’s most sophisticated health care systems, one of the world’s best judicial systems, and finally, the same Americans that go on to serve in the world’s greatest military. Even though 90% of our nation’s students attend public schools, if you listen to the PSHers, you’d think that all of these important jobs must be filled by private school graduates, home schooled kids, or possibly, even by immigrants. Surely those jobs aren’t being filled, and constantly being refilled, by public school graduates.
Yea, yea, the haters might say, but what about the kids finishing high school that can’t even read or write on 5th and 6th grade levels. We’ve all heard stories or have come into contact with these young people. How good could our public schools possibly be? Well, I’ll tell you about those students. These types of kids never even used to be in school. They were thrown away, told they were too stupid for school. They were forced to work at an early age in the America of old. Since our America has said that to be morally wrong, we are now forced to deal with some of the hard truths that accompany a system that says education isn’t a privilege, but a right.
Think about it. In 2005, according to the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey, 85% of all Americans aged 25 and over had obtained at least a high school diploma or its equivalent. Most teachers would tell youâ€â€85% on anything, especially something as important as high school graduation rates, isn’t too shabby. Now, let’s compare that 85% to the America of old. What about turn-of-the-century America when our industrial might was just starting to flex its muscles? In 1900, only 6% of Americans graduated from high school. Okay, but how about the 1950’s, when American ingenuity could solve any problem thrown its way? In 1950, less than 50% graduated. In 1970? Just over 50%. You get the point. Our country is graduating a lot more people, at a lot higher rate than we ever have before. That’s an undisputable fact that the haters seem to gloss over.
Does our public school system always succeed in taking students with disabilities, low intelligence, or the ultimate handicap of being born into a family that doesn’t value education, and get them up to the levels of their peers? Of course not! But does any system that has over 55 million (primary and secondary) participants enjoy 100% success?
At least we can all agree that teachers, and especially their unions, are ruining public schools, right? The haters would sure have you believe that. After all, teachers only work nine months of the year, they often times don’t have any expertise in the subject they’re teaching, and on top of all of that, they try to push their radical (aka “Liberalâ€Â) values onto our children. Combine these facts with their unwillingness to change, the haters will tell you, and you have a recipe for disaster. At best these arguments are outdated. At worst, they’re insulting and flat out lies.
When was the last time you met a teacher that doesn’t put in multiple hours outside of his or her school day? When was the last time you met a teacher that isn’t qualified (overly qualified in many cases) to teach their subject matter? And, perhaps most importantly, when was the last time you met a teacher that doesn’t push the values of hard work, honesty, respect for others, and the importance of getting an education upon their students? I think we can all agree that those are American values. But that’s not all. Who coaches the vast majority of sports teams, who directs our schools’ plays, who oversees the leaders of tomorrow at our student council meetings, who guides the future geeks of our country in our math and computer science clubs? Seriously, who would provide these important jobs if not for our teachers? Unfortunately, I don’t see a lot of volunteering businessmen and/or soccer moms banging on the schoolhouse doors. Do you?
It’s gotten to the point that most people almost instinctively think our public schools are failing. That’s a shame. Maybe if teachers and administrators weren’t spending such precious time trying to meet unfunded, unrealistic, and useless Federal mandates, we could start a public relations campaign. We could tell Americans about all of the good things that are going on in our public schools. Maybe we could remind them that we are graduating more students than ever before, or that college enrollment rates are at all-time highs. Maybe we could remind Americans that over half (57%) of our nation’s 3 million public school teachers hold Master’s degrees and above, or that almost every single new teacher has an undergraduate degree (or its equivalent) in the subject(s) they are teaching. We could tell them the average American spends more time in schoolâ€â€12 yearsâ€â€than any other country’s citizens. One would like to think these facts would be welcome newsâ€â€met with open arms and smiling faces. Then again, when was the last time the public school haters let facts get into the way of their pre-conceived agenda?
Kevin Curran is a teacher in the Cincinnati Public School System. He has been teaching since 2000, with the last seven years spent in CPS. During the 2006-2007 school year, over 92% of his students in 10th grade U.S. History passed the Ohio Graduation Test (OGT); compared to the state average of 76%. Mr. Curran believes that parents play the most important role in determining the academic success of students.
I don’t know what schools are like where you happen to teach. I don’t really know how US schools are in general.
What i do know, that once you get to teach, or better yet - to send your kids to *any* public school in Philadelphia - maybe then i could read your words without it leaving a sour taste.
Imagine for a second that those “Liberals” clawing for change - just happen to leave in worse circumstances than you find yourself in.
I think you’re right to point out the successes of public schools. It is an amazing system we have set up, which is why I’m so wary of people who want to scrap the entire system to make way for something new. But there are real problems, and it’s hard to ignore that. The question is not how we can bail out our failing school system maybe, but how can we make the existing system better and more equal.
As someone who attended both public and private schools as a child, I think you are way over-generous with your accolades heaped upon the public schools in America. Here are my problems with them:
1) They don’t encourage curiosity, they encourage rote memorization for standardized tests that resemble a simpler grading task for the teacher in question.
2) They have inferior teachers, by several orders of magnitude.
3) They are concerned more with graduation rates and college placement, and less with functional intellects that serve people as human beings in a complicated world.
4) They are run like summer camps and not preparatory schools, with “early out” days and more holidays than a bank.
5) They pander to the lowest common denominator.
6) You have to get into a “gifted and talented” program to get any sort of individual attention worthy of intellectual nourishment.
Before you jump all over my post, I will advise that the public schools I attended were in Montgomery County, Maryland — one of the best public school systems in the nation.
The accomplishment/accolade list you offer to me says very little. I would assume that AT A MINIMUM, every school would HAVE TO achieve the things that you seem to think are grand accomplishments. I would liken your list of accomplishments to giving a student a bare “D” on a test simply for providing his/her name and the date.
Hey,
This is the author of the article. I’m using my user name. Just a few things that I feel like I have to adress. To claim that public schools “have inferior teachers, by several orders of magnitude” as the poster above did (The Wendigo) is simply ridiculous. By what measure do you make that claim?
Private schools teachers do not even have to be certified, meaning they simply have to have a college degree–in any subject. They don’t have to pass the Praxis tests. They don’t have to pass state-mandated teacher-prepardness evaluations. They get paid about 25% to 30% lower starting salaries. They don’t have a retirement system worth speaking of. And, they don’t have to deal with most of the discipline problems that many public school teachers have to constantly and skillfully handle. How are they better by leaps and bounds? Please explain.
Do the math. Teachers coming out of college want to go to good public schools. They pay the most and you have the best students. Those that cannot find jobs end up teaching at private schools. That’s the most common route teachers take. Very rarely have I ever seen a person want to teach at a private school unless it’s their Alma Mater or because of its religious affilliation. Usually they are biding their time until they can find a public school job. Ask some teachers you know and see what they say.
Of course I do not think that all public schools are great. But, I wrote this article to challenge some of the beliefs that seem to have permeated a lot of people’s minds. Especially those people that listen to proponents of “school choice.” That term means nothing. It’s simply a scam meant to do one of two things.
School choice is code for “let’s make some money off ‘teaching’ these poor kids” and it’s code for, “let’s see how much we can diminish the power of these greedy teacher unions.” That’s it. Rarely have I ever seen a proponent of school choice step foot in an inner-city public school (other than for a photo-op) nor have I seen any statistics that would indicate private school vouchers and charter schools improve our education system. Please, prove me wrong with some cold, hard facts. Anecdotal evidence aside, it’s simply a myth that “America’s public schools are failing.”
Please, look at the people that are touting the virtues of school choice. What are their biases? What are their motives? Are they really interested in kids, or do their interests lie elsewhere? I think an unbiased observer would tell you that most “school choicers” are not even in the education field. In other words, do they know what they are talking about?
I would like to write another piece coming at our public schools from a different angle. That is, provide you all with a common sense list of reforms (about 25 or so) that would be much more effective in improving our public schools (especially inner city ones) than in simply scraping them in favor of for-profit schools. I hope you would find it useful. Thanks.
To Vincent Evans:
First off, I’ve taught in two of the worst neighborhoods in Cincinnati where poverty, lack of parental involvement, and crime was the norm–not the exception. It might not have been as bad as Philly’s worst neighborhoods, bit I think you are confusing two things. I would bet that it’s not the schools and/or teachers that are failing in parts of Philadelphia–it’s the parents sending kids to those schools. There’s a big difference between the two that most people don’t seem to understand.
If you are unlucky enough to be born to a parent that didn’t get an education themselves, is too young to know the right ways to raise a child, is a single parent forced to work long hours, or is simply a deadbeat, there is very little a school can do to change your lot in life. I know that sounds harsh, but unfortunatly, it’s the hard truth that I’ve seen played out time and again, year after frustrating year. No amount of money is going to fix that.
In schools where parents are involved in their chilren’s lives, regardless of income level, you can begin to change the conditions that may be present. The number one influence in any person’s education is their parents or guardian. If they value education, MOST of the time the student does too. What’s truely remarkable is how many kids succeed at inner-city public schools in spite of their surroundings and homelife.
People need to quit viewing schools as the savior. Most schools are simply a reflection of the parents sending their kids to that given school. If we want to really fix struggling schools, we have to start with the parents.
to Ohiocrat –
You ask by what standards I assess public school teachers to be several orders of magnitude inferior to private school teachers. Here is your answer.
By my own standards, which apparently are more stringent and demanding than your own.
I understood quite clearly from your original essay that you are very proud of your service as a PS teacher. I didn’t make my comment lightly, given that obvious message from your original essay.
But I stand by it nonetheless, and at the very worst, what my criticism indicates, is that FOR ME the public school experience was a dismal failure, because FOR ME the teachers were vastly inferior and incapable of meeting my intellectual needs. Totally incapable.
You can hammer away at your pet issues, and sing the praises of PS faculties everywhere. Nothing you say will change my experiences. Nothing.
If you cannot weather criticism of your rather over-general essay, perhaps you ought not to be publishing your thoughts in a public setting.
PS to Ohiocrat –
If you think “certification” helps in any way, then your perspective is flawed.
Certification is a hoop-jumping process destined to serve only one purpose: bureaucracy.
I have many friends who have taught in public and private schools. Those who are in private education left the public setting because their experiences mirrored my observations.
Perhaps your standards are too low for people like us. Perhaps your fantasy is too powerful to let you acknowledge a real truth about the experiences of others.
Wendigo:
Certainly I can understand your high standards. And I also understand your hestitancy to accept traditional certification processes. However, you’re answer that public school teachers don’t meet your standards is pretty inadequate without something to back that up.
For example, what standards do you judge teachers by, other than simply saying yours are higher? If you have a set of thought out standards, then how do you know private school teachers meet those standards better than public school teachers? Have you done research? Have you conducted a poll or survey?
What you’re telling me right now is that your standards are higher, and the public school teachers you’ve come in contact with, by your own observation, don’t live up where the private ones do. That’s hardly a convincing statement.
Mr. Curran has facts to back up his claims. Our public schools are good because by and large they do what we want them to do, which is teach students and prepare them for college and beyond. They’re not perfect, but they do in fact get the job done to a large extent. If you have facts that say otherwise, do come forth.
Perhaps you are enamored of quantifiable standards, so that certification and other such hoop-jumping may occur.
Americans are enamored of competition in all forms, and academic matters are no exception.
The type of education that appeals to me is Socratic. If you have a manner of “standards” for something as highly subjective and malleable as Socratic teaching and inquisition, perhaps you could share them and maybe I’d agree… or maybe I’d not.
I realize that for many people, “standards” are necessary. I would agree to holding them myself, but I would not agree that they are easily reduced to statistical analysis. Education is a highly subjective process, even in the hard sciences. Public schools tend to care little about intellectual growth, because that’s not easily standardized and must attend to individual intellectual differences, needs, desires.
You want to have a bunch of kids who make it through K-12 so that governmental authorities can boast of graduation rates and college placement — then design a system like American Public Schools.
You want to have highly intelligent youngsters who become valuable contributors to a complex society full of immeasurable opportunities for lifelong learning, then the American PS system is a dismal failure.
PS to J-Ro.
I don’t much care if you feel “convinced” by my argument. My argument is honest, factual, and strongly felt. Nothing you say changes my perspective. Whether you feel compelled toward persuasion really doesn’t matter to me. I’m just sharing sincere thoughts on a subject that I find very important.
If you cannot find value in my comments then I suggest you re-evaluate what methods you use to determine value. I know it’s hard to try to be empathetic and that’s what compels people toward statistical analysis of “standards” that are reducible to numeric test scores.
Think about essay testing, and you are going to be a lot further down the road to where I’m coming from. Think about Socratic dialogue and you get even closer.
Think about Iowa tests and No Child Left Behind, and we are a whole lot closer to Ohiocrat’s fantasy-world view of the “huge successes” of the pathetic American public school system.
Statistics can be massaged to mean anything. Intellectual growth is the goal, not statistical task-meeting.
I’m not denying the honesty of your arguments. And I do agree that there are things that are unquantifiable, certainly. However, my question to those who want to change the system is always the same:
What’s your solution?
Because even though you’re arguments are well thought out and heartfelt, they don’t leave me much to go on in terms of public policy. How would you make this system better?
My solution is to not support public schools.
As a more global proposition though, if asked how would I personally improve public schools?
1) Higher standards for teachers, and eliminate “certification” because it is nonsense. Either you can teach, or you cannot. Certification can’t change that. Test a teacher’s abilities, and if the teacher in question is inept, then dismiss him/her. Certification is a pathetic exercise in justification. It has no bearing on the quality of the certified person’s teaching skills.
2) Longer school days and longer school years. Teachers unions that have struggled to shorten the day and lighten the workload have helped emasculate our public schools. This goes to point (1) above. If you don’t want to work hard to help kids learn, then go become a camp counselor, which is apparently what MANY PS teachers want to do.
3) Teach the truth. No propaganda, no revisionist history, no omission of ugly facts about America. Let the students decide whether America’s history is something to be proud of, or something that warrants some serious changes in how our country does its business domestically and abroad.
4) Eliminate standardized tests. Completely. Forever.
5) Use essay tests as often as possible. Then go back to (1) and get rid of teachers who cannot teach that way.
6) Encourage inquisitiveness, not memorization. We’re not training a nation of card-counters to win at blackjack.
7) Emphasize the quality of communication, oral and written.
9) Stop seeing computers as essential to a child’s education.
10) Stop focusing on graduation rates and college placement. Start focusing on subjective skills, like helping an incurious child become inquisitive.
Wendingo, you are sooo funny! Eassys for all! Question, who do think grades these essay tests, this bajillion essay tests? Most of the graders do not have a college education due to the numeric demand for essay graders. PRAXIS? ETS is the biggest scam there is. I know a guy who made close to perfect score on the GRE and he failed the PRAXIS high school certification essay test. To pass it, you have to repeat back to ETS their formula and use their same terms because that is what the unqualified essay graders are trained to look for.
See You Later Wendingo.
some guy
Also to J-Ro,
I submit that an emphasis on “public policy” is a major problem in America right now. “Public policy” is for think-tank pseudo-intellectuals who want to wank with words.
How would you educate a group of 10 children, if you had the freedom to teach them however you thought best? Ignore the strictures and architecture of current PS systems. Think about what would work best.
It is quite apparent to me that the thing we call “America” is dead. We are just holding its hand while the life support systems keep it alive. At some point the plug must be pulled, the DNR code followed.
“Public policy” therefore is a distraction. The focus should be to avoid think-tank word-wankery, and to emphasize helping children achieve their potential. Mere graduation rates don’t do that. Nor does college placement.
I happen to think that college is well over-rated and is more a business than an intellectual growth locus.
I love your proposals. I think they’d fit right in with any school, public or private. I guess right now I’m confused as to why you think public schools aren’t capable of all this. The public school I went to hit at least 6 of those marks well. It’s possible.
I don’t think they’re capable of it because they’re not doing it. What’s the reason for not doing it?
I have seen no evidence of any of my points being met with any regularity in any public school. And I will reiterate that I was schooled in Montgomery County MD, one of the best PS systems in America. I wouldn’t send my kids to their schools. I wouldn’t suggest it for anyone.
Most of the PS teachers I know and have known have been people who just “love kids” and feel more like babysitters who happen to have a secondary minor agenda of imparting some information to be memorized and then, at some future point, regurgitated for grading on a standardized no-thought test.
If your local PS is doing otherwise, I would argue that it is more likely a rare exception, and not representative of the general trend or practice.
Mine definitely was the exception, no question.
Why are they not doing it? I don’t know. That’s the key question. Some are doing it, to varying degrees, sure, but it’s not universal. A change in political culture maybe? Better management? Who knows.
The problem I have with scrapping the system and building something new is that unless you’ve got an idea of how to do it, we’re going to get something that looks much like what we’ve got now, or something that doesn’t give education equally to everyone. Both are major issues if we’re talking about rebuilding.
Well we definitely wouldn’t help anyone if we scrapped the current system and got a new one that provided the exact same thing.
However, I believe that all systems are doomed to failure and need revolutionary changes periodically. Nothing is perpetual, and nothing is self-perpetuating. All success comes from work and opportunity mixed in healthy proportions. The current system seems to eschew work and avoid opportunity for positive change.
I’d also wonder about whether the current system gives education equally to everyone. In 1992-1993 I spent some lunch hours tutoring young elementary school students in basic math, at a fairly impoverished school on Capitol Hill in DC. The children at this school were at an even greater disadvantage than the ones who attended school with me in Montgomery County MD. I’m not quick to blame it solely on lack of money, nor solely on lack of parental support at home. I think it’s a complex mix of teachers who might not be suited to the complicated task of understanding children unlike themselves (when they were kids, I mean), of not knowing the truth about the child’s home environment, of not having enough money, of not having decent physical facilities. In the poorer areas it becomes quite clear that money is a big problem. In the richer areas it seems to be teacher apathy and parents who are too busy chasing their own $$$ or status success and not enough time being good parents to their kids… and money rarely is an issue. Those who say money can’t fix things tend to be from richer schools, in my experience.
Any money spent must be spent wisely. Computers and high-tech learning are boondoggles for government contractors, not benefits for students. Teachers that don’t want to teach shouldn’t receive our taxpayer dollars… they should, as I said above, go off to become camp counselors, or circus clowns, or porn movie dominatrices.
Wendigo,
Man, I don’t even know where to start. J-Ro said a lot of the things that anyone would say to you regarding your claims of private schools supremacy. First of all, maybe you had a bad experience at public schools. Maybe you didn’t fit in socially (after hearing you try to debate, I can begin to understand why. The whole “I’m not going to change my opinion no matter what” seems to go directly against the ‘Socratic’ learning style you tout). Maybe your teachers were shitty in public schools. I don’t doubt your own experience(s) since you lived through them.
What you keep failing to adress is how do we measure whether or not a teacher is a sucess or a failure, good or bad, effective or ineffective? What is your criteria to judge that important task? The way you talk, I have no idea how you would do that. Can you answer that simple question? If you cannot, then this is an exercise in futility.
That said, let me reiterate something I thought I had already made pretty clear. I’ve never said all public school teachers were great, or good, or even fair. There are bad ones. I’ve worked with them. Trust me, I know that. However, show me any profession with millions of participants and I’m willing to bet teachers fall right in the middle when it comes to overall job performance. That’s life.
What I’m arguing is that our nation’s public schools and its teachers have gotten better. That’s right, they are trending in the right direction. High School curiculums are much more stringent than they used to be. New teachers have to be much more proficient in the content area(s) they are teaching in. Most public school teachers have to continually update their own education. Most districts require Master’s degrees within a certain time frame. All of these requirements may not mean anything to you, but they are all more than private school teachers have to do. That may not make them better teachers, but on average, it makes public school teachers much more qualified to teach a wide array of students–something private schools may not have even to worry about. Sorry that may not fit into your experiences, but I don’t think you can dispute that without showing me otherwise.
Lastly, you seem to think all teachers simply take the easy way out with regard to grading tests rather than assigning “essays.” There has to be a mix. Any teacher with 120 students a day (like me) simply cannot assign essays every day. That simply isn’t feasible. Think about it. When my students write a paper, it takes me about 10 to 15 minutes per paper. 15 minutes times 120 (let’s say 110 if 10 kids don’t turn it in) comes out to 28 hours of grading–for one assignment!
I know you don’t think teachers should have a life, but how and when do you propose we grade this stuff? Keep in mind, we have to teach during the day, then plan and grade other assignments after school. This isn’t even taking into account all of the extra-cirricular activities teachers partake in.
Where are the 28 hours suppossed to come from? After all, we lazy teachers need to get the students’ papers back to them in a timely manner (less than a week), don’t you think? So when are we suppossed to grade, plan, teach, coach, parent our own kids, and live our own lives? That is why I limit my extended writing assignments to probably two per quarter. Even then, it’s difficult to get everything done and still stay sane.
It seems like you just want to bash teachers just for the hell of it. That’s fine, but don’t get all pissy when confronted with facts and real-life situations that don’t seem to fit in with your pre-conceived notions. That’s all.
Wendigo,
Where do you come up with some of this stuff. I just read your statment:
“Test a teacher’s abilities, and if the teacher in question is inept, then dismiss him/her. Certification is a pathetic exercise in justification. It has no bearing on the quality of the certified person’s teaching skills.”
Please, explicitly, with details, explain what this means. It seems like a bunch of jibber-jabby to me. “Test a teacher’s abilities.” Sounds great, but how do you it? Do you even know what getting one’s certification entails? I’ll try to explain.
Teachers get observed–on the job–up to ten times in a three to four month span to even get their college degree. That’s just for starters during an unpaid internship/student teaching session that dwarfs college majors of comparable pay and length. I can’t think of another major that goes through anything close to the on-the-job (unpaid) training that teachers go through. Can you?
Then, new teachers have to pass a content-based Praxis exam (not easy at all in the one I took–history). Then, they have to pass a general knowledge Praxis exam. That was fairly easy for me, I have to admit. But, we’re not done yet.
All new teachers (in Ohio at least) are on probation pending the passage of the Praxis 3 test their first year of teaching. That entails more in-class observations (5 or so) during their first year. That’s not all though. Each individual district has its own teacher evaluation system. In CPS, that entails first year teachers being evaluated around 6-8 times (I forget the exact number). After each evaluation, the teacher must write a reflection and sit down for an interview with his or her evaluator. If the teacher doesn’t receive high enough marks (a fairly common occurrance), they are put on probation again, and they have to go through the whole process again the following year. If they don’t pass it the second time, they are fired.
Add all of this up. One teacher is observed around 20 times in a year-and-a-half period by a paid professional who’s job it is to watch and help young teachers. Only after meeting clearly set standards (and passing the mandated tests) does that teacher receive his or her certification. And then, it’s only good for 3 years. Teachers then have to go through another observation process each time they go to renew their certification.
Once again, it’s not a perfect system. But, no totally inadequate teacher is “getting through” the screening net states have set up. This is a good thing. Gone are the days when some teachers don’t even have a clue.
I said it before and I’ll say it again. Name me one profession of comparable pay and required schooling that has anything close to the training program teachers have.
Sorry, but any monkey with a keyboard can create scarecrows and then attack them and declare victory.
Whatever you keep “saying before and saying again” doesn’t convince of your accuracy. Sadly, it convinces me only of your ego having bloated your importance and role in society well beyond what it merits.
Your criticisms of my position lack merit. As far as I can tell, to the extent you are communicating accurately, every one of them has been addressed in my posts above.
So I can conclude only this: if these last two posts indicate your ability to teach another person something that you hold as important factual information, you need to do a lot more studying on the subjects you plan to teach.
Wendigo,
I rest my case. Not one fact, not one statistic, not one quote from a respected educator, nothing. Is that how your private school educators taught you how to present a persuasive argument? Oh well, what do you expect from uncertified teachers? Ha, ha. (Have a little sense of humor, won’t you?)
Oh, and I like how you simply gloss over the whole 28 hours to grade one writing assignment thing. Typical. Keep bitching, offer no realistic solutions. And yes, I read your wish list above. Once again, sounds great, but how do you propose we get there?
I found this to be an enlightening and reassuring article. The author did address this somewhat, later in the comments, but I wanted to add and emphasize the importance of equality, or lack thereof, in school funding. I just read a wonderful book by Jonathan Kozol, “Letters to a Young Teacher,” that deals with this on a profound level. Segregation still exists in America. Inner-city schools that have a statistically insignificant number of white children are not only underfunded but also educationally undernourished due to the relentless demands of standardized tests that don’t do a thing to measure actual learning. It’s a relief to hear that our public schools are generally pretty hunky-dory, and it’s true that parental involvement will do the most to help a child succeed, but we need to keep sight of the dire need for proper funding and smaller class sizes. Alleviating poverty in general wouldn’t hurt either, though that’s another topic entirely.
And, yeah…for all of his Socratic education and high ideals and even good ideas here and there, all Wendigo can manage in his arguments is bitter myopia. Say we did scrap public education and replace it with something else, in which teachers were screened by a divine divining rod of Hellenic purity that could look deep into one’s soul and measure the true heat of inspiration’s flames. Or a scale that accepted only those whose psychic heft transcended the weight of conventionality. Only the best, for whom students would jump on their desks and cry “O Captain my Captain!”
Well…these same individuals would exist in the world, and be drawn or not drawn to teaching, regardless of what system we have. Maybe private schools *attract* more of these talented teachers because of better pay or the lack of discipline problems. MAYBE. (Although Mr. Curran said public schools pay better, which surprised me.) But no matter what system we have, we have the same people we would have had anyway. All of America’s children must be taught, somehow. The rich and the poor, the intellectually curious and the violently stubborn. Mental flexibility and analytical thought shouldn’t be the privilege of the rich and/or well-informed. Yes, embracing free thinking and shunning regurgitation are values we should all have in our schools, but a change of system doesn’t automatically mean a change of values. Why not, instead, work with what’s working (which Mr. Curran has laid out well), and work ON what isn’t? Improve funding and reduce class sizes, get rid of standardized tests, find more ways to draw talented teachers.
As a side note, I’m an assistant English teacher this year in Germany, so am particularly interested in the topic of teaching right now. Prior teaching experience wasn’t required for this position, and I had none, so I’m still learning the ropes! Language teaching requires a considerable amount of rote memorization, unfortunately, but I’m still hoping to find ways to inspire. If anybody (including Wendigo) has suggestions for HOW to start helping an incurious child become inquisitive…especially an adolescent child…and in a class of usually 32 kids…I’m all ears.
Never had anybody so foolishly myopic themselves as to call my thoughts “bitter myopia” when my entire point is based on long-term improvement.
Please re-examine the definition of myopia, smart guy.
Please get your head out of the lame PS system’s cloaca, and try reinvigorating its over-fenestrated noggin.
“As a side note, I teach English….”
Well of course you do. That’s why you think I’m bitter, and why you don’t understand what is myopic and what is far-reaching.
You’re as pathetically apologetic for a dead system as is that fool who wrote the essay and teaches for Ohio PS systems.
Continue your grandiose fantasies about college placement and graduation rates. Meanwhile, millions of kids are dis-served by your nonsense, your Pollyanna views.
You teach English, eh?
Why don’t you and Ohio-boy go read Babbitt. You’re both a couple of George Babbitts.
I had a long list of how to fix things. Sorry you didn’t like my list. Sorry you think it’s not feasible. Sorry you are a teacher, most of all. Because teaching takes more than a soft NPR voice and a “love of kids.”
It takes a rigorous intellect, which neither you nor Ohio-boy has.
Pity, really. You’re both a big part of the reason why PS systems suck donkey testicles.
When you 20-something Pollyannas grow up and learn what it’s like in the real world of self-sufficiency, and see that “college placement” means playing a role in the BUSINESS SECTOR of “education” then you will have a clue.
Meanwhile, Ohiocrat will continue to take innumerable paragraphs of circuitous illogic and barely-hidden rabid mouth-foaming anger at my speaking the truth, just to posit his irrelevancies.
And the new “genius” in the thread will mis-use words and metaphors, despite claiming “English teacher” status.
Ohioboy talks about “resting his case” and me “making my case for him.”
Dull conclusory remarks don’t prove a thing. Especially when they’re uttered by someone whose posts have indicated nothing but an inability to reason, to argue, or to advance an idea.
Deep shame. Terrible pity. And high embarrassment.
That’s what you two “genius” teachers have shown me.
Wow, talk about rabid mouth-foaming anger. I’m not interested in flame wars or ad hominem attacks, here. I was criticizing the way you were arguing, not you personally, and not all of your arguments in themselves for that matter. Like J-Ro, I think your list contains some very fine goals, most of which I’d strive for in my own classroom. It’s just that I don’t agree that changing the system, going to all private schools, whatever, is going to magically make all that happen, nor do I think that list is incompatible with public schools as they exist. Are public schools perfect right now? Hell no. But are they an irredeemable disaster? Not at all. It’s not Pollyannaish and self-defeating to work for change within the system. Nor does working in public schools or advocating for them translate into advocating for lifeless, cookie-cutter, business sector education. I’m an arts major, for Christ’s sake. I hate that shit.
You have ends here, but not means. By myopia, I meant on the one hand not being able to look beyond your own obviously bitter experiences with public schools and accept that there are other views. And on the other hand, pardoxically, in your quest for long-term improvement, you also become myopic…or perhaps hyperopic. Seeing nothing but lofty ideals and being incapable of grounding them in reality and discussing them rationally. Which isn’t to say that I don’t believe in having lofty ideals. Quite the contrary. But I also believe in sense. A balance has to be struck between the two. Glorious Marxesque revolution isn’t the solution to every problem.
Also, one overlooked fact in evaluating US schools is we have a 99% literacy rate for people over the age of 15, just about as high as is possible. My source? None other than the US govt.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/210 3.html
And on the other hand, pardoxically, in your quest for long-term improvement, you also become myopic…or perhaps hyperopic. Seeing nothing but lofty ideals and being incapable of grounding them in reality and discussing them rationally. Which isn’t to say that I don’t believe in having lofty ideals. Quite the contrary. But I also believe in sense. A balance has to be struck between the two. Glorious Marxesque revolution isn’t the solution to every problem.
Nice attempt at discussion/debate.
What you have done is state conclusions.
And your conclusions include assumptions about me and my beliefs which are dead wrong.
Where did I say we need a “Marxesque” (you teach ENGLISH??) revolution?
Your ignorance speaks for itself, sadly. I pity those who suffer your “teaching” in whatever Ohio public school you pollute.
Hey, Wendigo! Good to have you back, man. I was just thinking today, “You know, there isn’t enough douchebaggery in my life these days.” And then here you were! Funny how life works, ne?
OK…sorry…I will try to be civil now.
One more personal point before I move on to ideas, though–I’m amused that you think I am, how did you put it, “a big part of the reason why the PS system sucks donkey testicles,” where, if you went back and read more carefully, you’d know that I have nothing to do with the American PS system. I am a teacher in GERMANY. An assistant teacher at a private Christian school. So no worries, I’m “polluting” no poor unsuspecting children in the American PS system. I’m just “polluting” kids across the pond with engaging speaking activities, thoughtful and provocative discussions about American culture, and loving care. And I do in fact love kids, but that doesn’t preclude me from having a brain and caring about my kids actually learning something and becoming functional human beings. Which indeed I do. Also, here’s a shocker, loving kids is part of what makes a good teacher. It’s not ALL you need, you certainly have a point there. But being engaged with the kids on an individual level (as much as you can, in a class of 32 kids…yes, even here in a private school, oy) and caring about them as human beings, caring about how they learn, is a foundation for successful teaching.
So, onward…
Yeah, I thought you might tear into me on “Marxesque.” I know very well that the usual term is “Marxist,” thanks. I was deliberately playing with it (though I probably didn’t make that clear enough), thinking, well, he’s probably not a Marxist per se, but some of what he’s saying has an almost Marxist ring to it. So it’s…Marx-ESQUE. Marx-ISH, perhaps I should have said.
Or maybe Marx-anything isn’t the right word. I majored in English, not political science. But some of what you say, blustering about how the system is utterly, hopelessly broken and if you try to work for change within it you are a failure and a Pollyanna apologist, smacks of the kind of thing I sometimes hear from my more extreme socialist acquaintances. Your ideas are that public school as a system must be done away with–that’s rather revolutionary, is it not? At least it sounds that way to me.
If this is an inaccurate characterization of your ideas, I welcome you to correct me. Then maybe we can start a real conversation. But please tell me, in detail (and, if at ALL possible, refraining from deriding my intellect or ability to argue), HOW they are inaccurate. You accuse others of making “dull, conclusory remarks that don’t prove a thing.” But in much of your arguing, especially as the thread has progressed, I’ve observed that you do just that yourself. You don’t back up what you say. You accuse others of being poor arguers while you yourself rely on ad hominem attacks, you don’t say WHY their arguments are flawed, you just claim that they are, and you claim that you’ve “already addressed” some point or other without clarifying what you mean or citing how you have already addressed it. I can see that you are intelligent and articulate, and yet you’re not arguing your case convincingly. Your own personal experiences–fine, no one can really argue against what you experienced, and I can see that you feel passionately about the subject based on those experiences. But it’s foolhardy to take your personal experiences and then project them onto everyone else, onto an entire system, and assert that, based on what YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED, the ENTIRE SYSTEM is broken and needs to be thrown away.
I know you think you have made clear what you think should be done…but you haven’t, really. You wrote a long wish list–WHICH, AGAIN, I LARGELY AGREE WITH!–but it is extremely vague in terms of practical solutions. Ohiocrat already parsed one point that really stuck out to me–“Test a teacher’s abilities, and if the teacher in question is inept, then dismiss him/her. Certification is a pathetic exercise in justification. It has no bearing on the quality of the certified person’s teaching skills.†“Test a teacher’s abilities.” HOW??? What is certification if not a test of the teacher’s abilities?! You claim that certification is crap, then later you don’t specifically respond to ohiocrat’s detailed explanation of what certification actually entails (I don’t know, sounds pretty rigorous to me, although it’s true that somehow incompetent teachers still slip through occasionally), and you fail to give an alternative to certification. How else would you test a teacher’s abilities?
As for the rest of your list, let me respond specifically.
2) Longer school days and longer school years. Teachers unions that have struggled to shorten the day and lighten the workload have helped emasculate our public schools. This goes to point (1) above. If you don’t want to work hard to help kids learn, then go become a camp counselor, which is apparently what MANY PS teachers want to do.
–OK, this is a more specific point, though I’m not sure if I agree with it. When I was in high school I felt that the days were quite long enough (8 hours since I had 0 hour, not including after school stuff) and that I barely had time to finish the work that I had. Granted, I was in advanced-placement courses at a very good public high school. But quantity doesn’t equal quality, and sometimes in fact erodes quality.
3) Teach the truth. No propaganda, no revisionist history, no omission of ugly facts about America. Let the students decide whether America’s history is something to be proud of, or something that warrants some serious changes in how our country does its business domestically and abroad.
–Yes, critical thinking about history is absolutely important, as is criticism towards our own country. But what is “the truth”? What is “revisionist history”? Some cases of this are clear (Columbus was a hero and behaved magnanimously towards the native population, yeah right), but others are continuously debated by historians. So this is a good principle to work with, but not one that has an easy solution. How does one agree on a history curriculum (if in fact one SHOULD agree on one), and how does one ensure that the kids are learning what they need to, neither being condescended to nor talked above? Especially in elementary grades. And no history textbook is perfect. Ever read “Lies My Teacher Told Me”? I was a victim of one of the books in there, “The American Pageant.” Pick that one up if you ever want a laugh. Oh the metaphors, the cheesy outrageous metaphors!
4) Eliminate standardized tests. Completely. Forever. –No argument there!
5) Use essay tests as often as possible. Then go back to (1) and get rid of teachers who cannot teach that way.
–Doable and desirable. Though remember that essay tests can, as ohiocrat pointed out, logistically only be done so often.
6) Encourage inquisitiveness, not memorization. We’re not training a nation of card-counters to win at blackjack.
–Absolutely. (Although some subjects, such as foreign languages, which I’m teaching right now, unfortunately do require a lot of memorization.) I would ask, though, how is a change of system to bring this about? Why can’t we encourage inquisitiveness in public schools? I know a lot of my teachers did.
7) Emphasize the quality of communication, oral and written.
–Yes. But again, how do you suggest we do this? How do we embed this value into a new system? And why can’t we strive to do so with our current one?
–I think multimedia education definitely has its place. It helps kids, especially the ADHD types with short attention spans, engage more with material. But it has to be used sparingly and intelligently. None of this popping in a video for the whole class period and sitting back to do one’s toenails.
9) Stop seeing computers as essential to a child’s education.
–OK, not essential, but again, they can be very useful.
10) Stop focusing on graduation rates and college placement. Start focusing on subjective skills, like helping an incurious child become inquisitive.
–Graduation and college placement rates aren’t everything…but neither are they nothing. They are a good *general* gauge of how well kids are performing. Say what you will about America’s colleges, but I’d say they’re among the best in the world (certainly better than those here in Germany, yeesh!), and they turn out some impressive human beings. Graduation and college placement rates also gauge to what extent kids give a shit about furthering their education and intellectual growth. If they drop out, then no institution, public or private, can reach them, and they may slip further through the cracks if they are already in a difficult situation regarding poverty, etc. For some people on society’s lower rungs, the “business sector” mindset you so deride can actually be a way out. However, you are indeed right that subjective skills are important. But I ask again, and again: how do you suggest we embed these values, and why can’t we try to do that in the school system we have? What’s the use of replacing the system when, given the facts of what our society currently is and man’s tendency to be a creature of habit, if you’re not careful you could end up with the same problems you initially wanted to fix?
So that’d be that. If you want to respond in a civil way and debate ideas, I’m all for it.
The author forgets MANY important pieces of information in his post. For instance…
“Maybe we could remind them that we are graduating more students than ever before,”
That does not mean too much considering, as you alluded to earlier, several of your graduates can barely read. Not to mention their other areas that could use improvement. Also there is the fact that a High School Diploma isn’t worth all that much these days.
“or that college enrollment rates are at all-time highs.”
Also not impressive considering the amount of colleges this nation has.
“Maybe we could remind Americans that over half (57%) of our nation%u2019s 3 million public school teachers hold Master%u2019s degrees and above, or that almost every single new teacher has an undergraduate degree (or its equivalent) in the subject(s) they are teaching.”
This is also useless. Most of the people that bring up education are only doing so because they hide behind it with comments such as “well I have a Master’s Degree so I know more than you.” Which IS something teachers I’ve had, do say. You wouldn’t believe the lack of knowledge some of my teachers in high school had, and I went to a very good public high school. And before you say “you were probably just a cocky know it all,” no, I don’t mean it like that. I mean American History teachers who did not know any specifics of any American war, Biology teachers that thought Evolution is a proven fact and refused to admitt that it was a theory (I’m not a wackjob Christian by the way, just thought I’d let you know), or English teachers that did not read the books they assigned to the class!
“We could tell them the average American spends more time in school%u201412 years%u2014than any other country%u2019s citizens.”
Yet look at the results it produces.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not think the majority of Private schools are great either, but to say that public schools are something OTHER than a joke, is quite frankly absurd. They teach students to be robots instead of thinkers or leaders, they get children’s parents to medicate children that do not need medication, they used to cater to the average student but now they cater to the dumbest student in the class. There IS a reason that 50% of the people with a genius I.Q. in this nation, do NOT graduate high school. They do not teach students to think for themselves, just follow the rules or pay the price. They patronize high school students with completely absurd rules whilst treating them like two year olds and then society says “gee, I wonder why 18 year olds act so immaturely these days??
More comments after reading what the other people, and the author, had to say…
Wendigo says:
“Nothing you say changes my perspective. Whether you feel compelled toward persuasion really doesn%u2019t matter to me.”
This is a terrible thing to say, it just shows your own stubborness and lack of ability to adapt. It is like a Holocaust denier saying “I don’t care what those stupid jews say, what the pictures show, etc. I will never change my opinion.” You have to look at ALL sides of an argument and be flexible in order to find the truth. On a side note: That is why our political system is also a joke, too many people saying “well this is right/wrong and I don’t care what anybody says it will not change my mind!”
“3) Teach the truth. No propaganda, no revisionist history, no omission of ugly facts about America. Let the students decide whether America%u2019s history is something to be proud of, or something that warrants some serious changes in how our country does its business domestically and abroad.”
A agree 100% with this. No more “Columbus was a great guy,” “We got the Louisianna purchase because Thomas Jefferson is such a GREAT negotiator,” “Yeah he was looking for the fountain of youth, totally not slaves, but the fountain of youth,” “everybody wanted to go to war with those evil English,” “if it it weren’t for us, the French would be speaking German! Therfore they owe us everything! It isn’t like they helped us become a country or anything,” “Thomas Jefferson treated his slaves so well, he was a great man,” etc. Not only these lies, but ALSO the lies from Guest Speakers that I’ve heard when I was in school, such as “1 in 10 condoms break and they don’t usually prevent AIDS,” “100,000 people died last year in Florida last year from Marijuana overdoses,” “one cigarette can kill you,” or my personal favorite, one that my NINETEEN YEAR OLD friend honestly believed… “Yeah, women can get pregnant from giving oral sex.”
“5) Use essay tests as often as possible. Then go back to (1) and get rid of teachers who cannot teach that way.”
I agree completely with this one also. Not necessarily a 100 page essay every friday, but a paragraph or so, even a sentence, just something to prove that the student knows what they are talking about and isn’t getting lucky guesses.
“6) Encourage inquisitiveness, not memorization. We%u2019re not training a nation of card-counters to win at blackjack.”
I agree, this could be done by teaching Philosophy classes in High Schools and perhaps even Jr. High Schools.
“7) Emphasize the quality of communication, oral and written.”
I agree with this also, how it can be done…
Oral - Simple, give oral examinations once in a while, it will also help students get over the fear of public speaking.
Written - This is a BIG one, keep up the teaching of sentence structer, spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. until they graduate.
“Stop focusing on visual education through computers, televisions, movies.”
I agree to some extent, mainly with the hungover teachers that put in a movie in lieu of teaching. I had one history teacher who played a movie almost every day, literally.
“9) Stop seeing computers as essential to a child%u2019s education.”
I agree, when I was in school every student got their own laptop computer for the year for “education.” Guess what they did with it, they would sit in the middle of class instant messaging eachother. The computers - helped 10%, hurt 90%. But there should be computer/typing classes, those shouldn’t be done away with.
My suggestions…
Start school at a later hour, there has been a TON of research about how this would benefit the majortiy of high school students. However I disagree about making the day longer, it is already an 8 hour day for them, longer if the student has after school sports/clubs or a job.
No more of this “fairness” nonsense. Grade on what is done, not how much they “try.” In real life your boss isn’t going to say “well you screwed up the project horribly and lost us a $20,000,000 account because of it! But on the other hand you did put in 50 hours of hard work on it, I think you should get a raise!” Basically they need more emphasis on the real world and less holding their hand.
Parental Responsibility, I can not stress this enough. Schools need to STOP being the students parents. Here is a CRAZY notion, let the children’s parents be their parents! I know, that is absurd. And I do not blame teachers for this, more like the school system, but the main reason for the school system is because it is what lazy parents want. They say “I’m not telling my kids about sex or drugs! I’m not going to teach them how to count or read! I’m not going to discipline them! This is all the school’s job damn it!
Another thing in Jr. High schools, but especially in High Schools, MORE FREEDOM for the students. They should educate the students the way college does, to teach them about responsibility. Two semesters, roughly 4 tests (depending on the class), I think most teachers would like that. The students can leave the school whenever they want and do not have to show up to class if they do not want to, then if they do not get that day’s notes and education, then they can do worse on their tests and have nobody to blame but themselves, thus learning responsibility.
Also for the highschools, in addition to teaching basic English and Philosophy, teach basic Mathematics, Current Events, Political Science (it is sad that most Americans can not name more than 5 presidents and do not know what is in the constitution), basic Geography, and have electives such as Economics, Advanced Geography, Psychology, etc.