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What is the best way to respond to the murder of Dr. George Tiller? |
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As I have written, I have been trying to figure out what the best way is to respond to the murder of Dr. George Tiller. I continue to be amazed by the rhetoric of the extreme anti-abortion side (which has managed to appear mainstream, thanks in large part to support from the Republican party). One commenter in this blog claims that Dr. Tiller’s murder was a completely justified “execution”, just punishment for the killings he supposedly committed.
I think there are a number of things that are necessary–starting with some long overdue leadership from Republicans who need to stop legitimizing extremism by making clear that it is dangerous and over the line to equate abortion with murder (the Republican party platform suggests that abortion is murder). I’d also like to hear from women who have had abortions so we can get past the caricatured notion that women casually decide to terminate pregnancies.
I’m curious to know what others think–please vote in the poll on the side of this page, and leave your comments here: what’s the best way to respond to this despicable act, and how do we take action to prevent more doctors and health care providers from being killed?
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I think we’ve just been way too damned tolerant of intolerance. Other countries have laws that address this sort of terrorism-enabling & inspiring. In fact, we do too: Haven’t Americans who merely send money to charities connected to political organizations in the Middle East been arrested and charged with terrorism? How are these radical anti-choice groups any different? Or the churches and political Parties that support them?
Either we have absolute freedom of speech, or we apply the legal strictures of the same laws in the same way to everyone. Anyone who commits or threatens to commit violence or aggravated harassment of women and their doctors, gays and their children, immigrants, minorities, the disabled or any other real or perceived group should be arrested, charged, tried, convicted, sentenced and imprisoned for a very long time: Life, in the worst cases. Those who support them financially or politically should be treated the same way we treat supporters of Hamas, including national religious leaders and elected officials.
The new hate crimes legislation should be used along with anti-terror laws to round up the worst elements of this “pro-life” mafia, and to put the rest of them on notice. Media outlets that disseminate their violence-inspiring filth should be fined or de-licensed. There really needs to be a very tough crackdown. Every element of our arts & media, our academic and religious organizations, our legal and political establishment, labor and business associations should be called upon to condemn the hate and the terror, and demand swift justice in every case. It has to be established as an invariable principle: Promoting violence is against the law and will be prosecuted and punished severely in every case. No more tolerance for intolerance.
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Thanks for the comment–I think this is very much worth thinking about. I am a staunch free speech advocate and will defend anyone’s peaceful speech, but speech protections are mot absolute, as Justice Holmes made clear nearly a 100 years ago with his famous “you can’t shout fire in a crowded theater” example. It is not ok to use speech to incite imminent violence or unlawful action, as the Supreme Court ruled in the 1969 Brandenburg case that sets the standard.
I don’t think legal action is the only way to respond though–it is still lawful for someone to say, in the abstract, that abortion is murder. So the solution here requires something beyond legal action. That’s why I think it is very important for supposedly responsible leaders to condemn this type of speech. Justice Holmes noted that the best response to free speech you disagree with is counterspeech. In this case, I think responsible Republican elected officials, if they truly are responsible people, have a duty to disclaim the incendiary rhetoric from their party platform and to make clear that it is over the line to say abortion is murder and to call doctors who perform abortions mass murderers. There is a way to change the way the abortion debate plays out, and the Republican party has a responsibility to speak out, given the fact that it has helped mainstream the radical anti-abortion movement.
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Agreed. That’s what I meant, in part, when I said that I thought all segments of society should condemn this. I do not, however, expect many Republicans/ conservatives/ fundamentalists to join in. They’re too busy using deliberately inflammatory language and outrageous actions for their own political purposes. That’s why I think the best example would be set by arresting them.
I don’t like the trend in the law toward less rights and more government power. But the RICO Act, the Patriot Acts and this new Hate Crime law could be used to bust up what is by any definition a highly organized if ostensibly diffuse conspiracy designed to generate fear and violence toward their political enemies. From George W. Bush to Eric Rudolph, from Pat Robertson to Scott Roeder, from Rush Limbaugh to Michael Griffin there are links in a chain that has purposely been created, a “movement,” they call it. The Justice Department and Homeland Security should be going after this “movement” with all the vigor and force of law they usually reserve for “leftist” conspirators.
Even if they fail to convict everyone in the chain, they could bust it up, and put the real fear of God in the irresponsible and cynical movement leaders. I’d love to see Dick Cheney or Sean Hannity sitting in the same dock that once held Abbie Hoffman or Daniel Berrigan. The government had no compunction about prosecuting and harassing a movement and a perceived leadership they happened to disagree with, if only because it was in opposition to that government. Let’s see Obama do the same to these actual murderers and their co-conspirators.
As to the civil liberties issues, they will win out in the end, as they should. But, in the meantime, every one of these reprehensible rabble-rousers could be put on notice, have their lives disrupted, and maybe spend some time in the pokey for their intentionally inspirational words and deeds. Fighting words, shouting fire in a crowded theater, obscenity, calling for violence against the government, verbal harassment and terroristic threatening are all already illegal. Let’s see some pre-emptive prosecutions of the Right, for a change, for the lesser crimes they commit every day, before more innocent people die in pursuit of their own rights.
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Cos, You have to be one of the biggest hypocrites I have come across. Everything is the conservative fault yet you fail to mention the absolute hate rhetoric coming from the left. You would stifle free speech coming from the right because they are “rabble-rousers”, yet you do the same with reprehensible rabble rousing against the right. Your posts are immediately discounted by any rational thinking individual interested in the truth because the truth is clearly not in your best interest.
Antoin, I appreciate your comments, but I think you’re simply trying to change the subject. Is your point that it’s ok for opponents of abortion, including the Republican party in its platform, to provide a justification for the murder of doctors because the left also engages in extreme rhetoric? that’s not very compelling, and it’s not very specific. what is this “hate rhetoric” from the left? Is it in the Democratic party platform, or spoken by Democratic leaders (I ask because the extreme anti-abortion rhetoric does appear in the Republican party platform and is spoken by Republican leaders).
Chris– my point is that the left continually engages in hate rhetoric– just one recent example is the clown that started the Miss California contraversy. Cos and you are slaming the republican party platform and actually lying saying they coall abortion murder– If this is not hate and devisive speech– what is it?
The guy who called Ms. California a bitch made a dumb and offensive comment, but I hope you’ll agree that’s quite a bit different from equating abortion with murder and calling Dr. Tiller a mass murderer, as some have. I can’t believe you really think the comment about Ms. California is comparable to the anti-abortion rhetoric. Context also matters. No one is killing beauty pageant contestants. People are killing doctors who provide abortions.
I also challenge you to show me where the Republican Platform calls abortion murder.
Antoin, I have said this several times. The Republican party platform “suggests” that abortion is murder. Look back at my post above. The language I’m referring to is this: “At its core, abortion is a fundamental assault on the sanctity of innocent human life”. It’s fair to say, as I have, that this suggests abortion is murder–it doesn’t literally say it, which is why I keep using the word “suggests”, but it is very clearly a euphemism for murder–what else does it mean to “assault” “innocent human life” in this context? I’ve gone over this a number of times and discussed it in another post as well. Please credit me for the careful language I have actually used rather than asking me to justify something I didn’t say.
The characterization of the pro-life movement on this blog after the Dr. Tiller murder has been extremely frustrating for me. I am regular follower of this blog and felt I needed to defend the group as they have been portrayed here. I am from Wichita, lived there until a few years ago. Many of my friends are staunch and active supporters of the Pro-Life movement and some have protested at Dr. Tiller’s clinic. These are the people that have been made out to be fanatics and favorable to slaying. I can say without exception, the dozens of people I have talked to and followed online have had nothing but 100% condemnation for the act. This is a group that is against abortion because they believe it is murder. They do not believe that this was a just action. The very very few individuals who are praising this act are a very vocal minority that do not represent the movement. It is easy to vilify and caricature those who disagree with us, but as someone who knows a large number of the real people in the pro-life camp, I can say with 100% conviction that this is a group is genuinely troubled by events of Sunday and would never support such an action, no matter their disgust for Dr. Tiller.
Here’s the point I have been trying to make: if your friends equate abortion with murder, they are creating a justification for the man who murdered Dr. Tiller. I am not saying your friends are directly responsible, but I think it is past time for people to carefully consider what it means to call abortion murder when we live in a country where a number of doctors and others have, in fact, been killed. Equating abortion with murder is an oversimplification. No one rejoices in abortion, but a pregnancy is a unique situation, and pregnant women face circumstances that no one else faces–fetuses who will be born with serious birth defects, pregnancies that put the woman’s life or health at risk. To suggest that these women are the same as a murderer, or that the doctors who give them treatment are mass murderers, is way off base and it is dangerous. You and your friends have the right to say this, but I hope you will consider how it gives Dr. Tiller’s murderer and others a justification.
What%u2019s the big deal about them condemning Tiller? I don’t know any Republican figure or anti abortion individual (with the exception of a couple of wacko’s)that don’t condem the murder. However, in the sceme of things a low level mass killer of 60,000 that the left has elevated to a heroic status is not a big issue. Do you want them to comment on every murder or just the ones you deem worthy? Why do you ignore a much bigger problem of a home grown prison jihadist murdering a soldier here in the U.S. That%u2019s much more significant than Tiller and I haven%u2019t heard a peep from the left. Be assured that I condem Tiller’s murder but don’t lay it on the right. If free speech causes death then the left should have shut up long ago.
the big deal is that the Republican party platform suggested abortion is murder and the Republican party has given cover to those who equate abortion is murder, as some leaders have used these terms. It is incumbent on this party, if it is a responsible party, to acknowledge that its rhetoric went too far and that it is time for people to take a step back.
I’m not ignoring the murder of a US soldier–it’s a different issue.
I truly don’t know what you mean about the left causing death, and, relatedly, please note that I am not saying the anti-abortion speech is “causing” death, but I am saying that it provides a justification for those who kill doctors
Just another example of inequality. How is it legal to terrorize women while they walk into a doctors office. Planned Parenthood and groups like this are often the only way women get Gynecological health care. If this was happening to men, laws would be enforced, and it would never have come to this.
Speaking of equating abortion with murder - there was a thought-provoking video going around a few months ago where they asked anti-abortion protestors what they thought the legal penalty should be for mothers who have abortions. The protestors would not agree that these women should face life in prison or the death penalty, or even any jail time at all. Why has their condemnation been focused on the doctors and not the mothers?
excellent point that highlights the fact that pregnancy and abortion is a unique situation, and it is a gross oversimplication and mischaracterization to suggest that abortion is the same thing as murdering or killing a living human being
Alice, what an over the top statement “Planned Parenthood and groups like this are often the only way women get Gynecological health care” That you can subscribe to that premise which is totally false is unbelievable. Do you honestly believe that Planned Parenthood is the only way women get treated? Even planned parenthood admits that 95
% of abortions are for non medical reasons.
Chris, Accusing the Republican Party platform of saying abortion is murder is an outright lie. You try to get around it by saying ’suggested abortion is murder ” but that also is a lie. Find me one instance of that in the Platform– You can’t. Yes, you have ignored the soldier– where have you commented on it?
Left causing death — Are you kidding me? Look at all of the anti war rhetoric while you have troops out in the field. Look at the effort to release prisoner abuse photo’s. What does that gain except to strengthen enemy resolve to kill more soldiers? Fine you disagree with the war– get your President Obama to end it, but don’t purposely kill U.S. soldiers in the meantime to make your point.
I have stated before– Tiller did not commit murder. What he did commit was a legal sanctioned killing– 60,000 of them. You tell me if he’s not killing what is dying? Have at your abortions but realize them for what they are%u2014killings. Don%u2019t shroud what you are doing in euphemisms.
Antoin, I appreciate your comments, but you are simply misstating what I said. I did not say the Republican party platform said abortion is murder–I said that they have “suggested” it is murder. I have quoted from the platform elsewhere–it charges that abortion is the destruction of sacred human life. I am accurately describing that “suggests” abortion is murder. I have been careful in how I choose my words.
Opposing the war is very different from calling (as some do) or suggesting (as the Republican party has) that abortion is murder. I want to write more by my wife is pulling me off the computer!
all right, that was quick, I am back. Antoin, again, thanks for discussing. I think, however, that you are trying to change the subject again when you say I ignored a solider was killed. I could use the same logic with you: why are you only concerned with fetuses who are being aborted–why haven’t you said anything about children who are abused and sometimes killed by their parents? It’s not a useful tactic. Of course there are many bad things that are happening. The fact that I am writing about why extreme anti-abortion rhetoric created a justification for Dr. Tiller’s murder doesn’t mean that I think that’s the only bad thing happening in the world. When you suggest otherwise, you are simply trying to change the subject.
We have gone back and forth several times on the question of whether abortion is killing. I don’t think it is–and I think it should be clear that abortion is something very different from killing a living, breathing human being. The point I have been making is that when you equate abortion with the killing of a living, breathing human being, you are creating a rationale for killing doctors who provide abortions (whether you call abortion “murder” or “sanctioned killing”). That’s pretty self-evident: if abortion is “sanctioned killing” that you feel is unjust, then you are suggesting someone who provides abortion is a killer. The killing may be legal, but you clearly believe the law that sanctions it is unjust. That’s where you get into very dangerous territory. Many people would agree that sanctioned killing under an unjust law is immoral, and many would probably agree it is justified (though illegal) to kill one person who carries out unjust sanctioned killings if you can save hundreds or thousands of other lives.
To give an example, what the Nazis did during the Holocaust was sanctioned killing. It was legal to kill Jews and others–no one was prosecuted under German law for this, and the “Final Solution” was sanctioned at the highest levels of government. But most people would say someone in 1942 would have been entirely justified in killing a Nazi executioner, even though the killings he committed were sanctioned by law. I’m not just making up random analogies here–some in the anti-abortion movement have directly compared abortion to the Holocaust and Dr. Tiller himself was compared to Hitler.
To be absolutely clear, what I’m saying is that, whether you call abortion murder or sanctioned killing, you are providing a justification for those who kill doctors.
Dr. Tiller was neither a murderer nor a killer. He was a decent man and humane physician who helped women. I am going to write more about this, but there women he helped have been speaking out. One woman explained that when she want to Dr. Tiller seeking an abortion, he convinced her NOT to have one. She was carrying triplets, was healthy, had no concerns about the pregnancy, but was (I believe–will get more details on this) convinced by her partner to seek an abortion. Dr. Tiller said. and this is a quote, that the pregnancy was “God’s gift” to the woman. She did not have the abortion and she recently wrote about this, thanking Dr. Tiller. This was not a bloodthirsty killer. As I said, I will write more about this. Appreciate all the comments.
Sorry didn’t see this post before my previous post. Gets confusing foloowing them. Look at this way - Are you killing something when you have an abortion? My problem with pro abortion is that they try and use euphesims for the word killing. If you want abortion fine, but call it for what it is and don’t try and flower up the act with words that don’t reflect the meaning of what is happening. I repeat- I have np problem with abortion for medical emergencies (excusr my spelling but spell check doesn’t work for me in this site). However, Planned Parenthood puts its own stats out showwing that 95% of abortions are for non medical emergenices.
As far as rhetoric from the right do you honestly feel people should keep their mouth shut when they so totally disagree with something? The left doesn’t do it nor should the right. To say that it gives justification for others to murder is wrong– There are wackos on both sides of the fence.
no one is “pro abortion”. people who think women should have access to safe medical abortion don’t rejoice when an abortion takes place, but we do think it should be available to women. There is an important difference there–no one is drooling with excitement over the prospect of abortion. The idea of bloodthirsty killers eagerly carrying out all the abortions they can is off base, to say the least.
we’ve gone back and forth over this. I can’t tell you when life begins, and I don’t think anyone can. I can say, as I have said several times, that there is a difference between an abortion and killing a living, breathing human being. That’s why I don’t think it makes sense to call abortion “murder” or “killing”–especially, as I have said repeatedly, when using this language provides a justification for those who kill or want to kill doctors.
As I have also said, I am staunch advocate of free speech. Of course people have the right to express their opposition to abortion. They even have the right to say that abortion is murder or sanctioned killing. I have been writing because I hope they will change their rhetoric given that the words they use offer a justification for those who murder doctors.
It’s not wrong to say that calling abortion murder or sanctioned killing provides a justification for those who murder. I have explained this at length above, including in my comment discussing how the Nazis carried out “sanctioned killing”. saying there are wackos on both sides of the fence is no excuse. when you know that there are people out there who are killing doctors, it makes sense to rethink rhetoric that offers a justification for their actions.
So I guess the anti abortion people should keep quiet from worry that someone will commit murder. The problen you have is that you cannot admit that unborn child is human. I for one will continue to voice my objections in the killing of soon to be children. You still haven’t told me what we are killing in an abortion– I’ve asked that several times. As far “no one is %u201Cpro abortion” just look at Alices innane remark– She intends it as population control.
you continue to twist my words. I didn’t say they should keep quiet. I said that I hope they would stop saying abortion is murder or sanctioned killing. I am not saying they should “be quiet”–just that they should think about the way they argue against abortion. By the way, for the latest example of how anti-abortion rhetoric crosses the line, see signs held at Dr. Tiller’s funeral that said “Baby killer to hell”, “God sent the shooter” and “abortion is bloody murder. Might have been a bit classier not to display this hate outside the church where the funeral took place. The reason I haven’t answered your question is because I don’t think anyone is being killed when an abortion takes place. Abortion is nothing to celebrate, but it’s neither murder nor killing.
The argument that anti-war speech in America has endangered our soldiers in Iraq is ludicrous. It shows you have no clue about what motivates the violence in the Middle East. The insurgents, the terrorists, and whoever else might want to hurt US soldiers doesn’t give a flying flip what is said on any blog like this or by any protestor waving a sign at a rally. Get real.
And might I add that what endangers our soldiers is lying to send them to fight a war that is ill-conceived, illegal, unjust, and unwinnable. How can you possibly blame the 4000-plus deaths on war protesters and not on the Bush?
Jim- Your ignorance is overwhelming– You dare to tell me I was lied to when I was there and providing the intelligence. Your rhetoric is unconscienable and over the top, down right ill informed and ill logical. You make me ashamed to even be in the same country as you. You and your ilk spout off just like Pelosi and when taken to task to back up your rants you fold like a cheap suit. As far as abortion is concerned when is the last time you killed something. I dare say never. You are to pristine and protected to even realize what its like. The number of people professionally managing or legitimately particpating in violence almost overwhelmingly oppose abortion because we know what dying is. You haven’t even got the guts to say you are killing anything during an abortion becuase you have to dress it up with euphesims to distance yourself from the act you support. A real coward. Make sure of your facts before running your mouth.
Let me get this straight. Because I have never killed another human being, I am not qualified to speak about abortion? Is that what you are saying?
What I figured- No you are not qualified to promote killing without ever having to experience it. I seriously doubt you had to kill any of your own food. Killing is so sterile to you that you fritter life away without ever fully feeling or engaging in what you are espousing. You can’t even admit your killing or what you are killing in an abortion. Just like your anti war stance. You can safely run your rants without ever seeing the overwhelming gratitude of a family because you at least temporarily made their lives safer or faced a real ticked off farmer with a gun frightened to death of American soldiers because they think we are Nazi Storm troopers, terrorists or any other number of names the left calls our troops. No, it%u2019s not ludicrous as you so naively put it %u2013its real. So before you tell me I don%u2019t have a clue about the Middle East you better check your facts and get out of your ivory tower. You can get nosebleeds up there.
Antoin, you are not qualified to speak on abortion without ever having to experience it.
that is a very apt response, Alice.
So sorry. I was speaking of the uninsured women. When you go to Planned Parenthood they ask if you are receiving Gyn. care, when your last pap was, and if you have been tested for ssd’s. They also can provide birth control, so you can prevent unwanted pregnancies. I would say they provide a very important service.
Jim– You are most likely talking about something you don’t have a clue about– Tell me how I was lied to–
Dear Antoin, I am touched by your concern on all of the unwanted children in this world. So I thought we could send them to you. I hope you have a large home.Please know that I will be forever grateful of your selflessness, you are a stronger man than I.
Sure Alice,
Now your affirming killings as a way of population control. Is that what you really mean?
I’ll let Alice speak for herself if she responds, but she most certainly did not say that.
Chris, Thanks. You are correct. I wonder if Antoin thinks birth control is murder? I am very thankful for people like Dr. Tiller. Abortions have be going on for centuries. It is not realistic to think one can stop this. The only way to reduce unwanted pregnancies is through education and availability to birth control.
excellent, excellent question Alice. I plan to write about contraception soon–that’s one area that we should all agree on–it’s a way to reduce the number of abortions, yet many on the right actually oppose even contraception. I’m hoping that will change. Thanks for your comment
You tell me what she said about unwanted children? You keep trying to flower it up with nuiances and it doesn’t work. According to ALice it’s unwanted childern– I can name a lot of unwanted adults with Tiller near the top. Can I abort him?
well, since Dr. Tiller was actually murdered, there is at least one person who would say “yes” to your question. This is precisely what I’m trying to get at: we live in a world where doctors are being murdered. That’s why I am asking opponents of abortion to tone down their rhetoric. The question you asked makes my point: do you really think that’s a responsible question to ask, given the fact that Dr. Tiller was, in fact, murdered? Asking whether you can “abort” Dr. Tiller isn’t just an intellectual exercise–it’s a principle that his murderer acted on. Your comment scares me a bit, and I really hope you’ll re-consider saying such things about a man who was killed just 8 days ago. Antoin, I have appreciated your many comments, as I love to discuss these issues. Please think about what you’re saying though. You just asked whether it is ok to abort an “unwanted” adult who was, in fact, very recently murdered. Do you really think that’s appropriate? Thanks for considering, and thanks for your comments–I do enjoy the chance to discuss all this, but your last comment unnerved me.
So let me see, you are offended by a sarcastic comment where I ask if Tiller could be aborted and yet your not offended by Tiller actually ending 60,000 lives. Real hypocrisy and scary. Furthermore, you give the impression that abortion doctors are being murdered right and left and anti-abortionist should “tone down their rhetoric”. Two problems– As far as I know its not open season on abortion doctors and two - toning down so called rhetoric when defending human life is not something one would keep quiet about. You want them to stay quiet because it offends you and makes you confront what you are really doing in an abortion. Your speech about “unnerve you%u201D is way over the top– should I sing lullabies? You are unnerving in that you want to actually terminate human life simply because they would be an inconvenience. You tell me which is more unnerving.
No, Alice I don’t think prevention (birth control) is wrong. It’s the way to go. Remember I also support abortion in extreme medical emergencies but not because the baby will become an inconvenience.
electronic communication does not convey sarcasm, and I didn’t say I was offended, I said I was unnerved. I’m glad you weren’t being serious, thanks for clarifying that. I’m not sure sarcasm is the right vehicle to use in talking about someone who was murdered 8 days ago, but you made me feel a lot better when you explained you were not being serious–thanks
Unfortunately, doctors who provide abortion are being killed–do I really have to prove that? It just happened 8 days ago, has happened in the past, and has gotten to the point that many doctors are afraid to provide abortions. It has been reported that Dr. Tiller was one of only 3 nationwide who provided late-term abortions–it is dangerous to do so, and many doctors have understandably opted out, rather than put their lives at risk. Dr. Tiller had been threatened for years and was previously shot in the arms, a number of years ago.
Antoin, please stop twisting my words. I don’t want to terminate human life. I don’t think anyone knows when life begins. I do know that if anyone has to make the very difficult choice between a living, breathing woman and a fetus, I will leave it to the woman to make her decision. I don’t believe women casually abort fetuses. As I have noted in several specific examples, the women who went to Dr. Tiller had life-threatening pregnancies or fetuses who were going to die or live short, painful lives once born.
This is not an easy area to talk about in any way. Many women who have abortions want children. They end up having abortions for various reasons–their life or health is at risk, the fetus is not going to live, they are 37 years old, already have three kids, and did not plan on more, they are 19 years old and not ready to have children yet. I don’t think any of these reasons have to do with “inconvenience” and I think women deserve more respect than this–you’re suggesting that women casually terminate pregnancies the way they might throw away a tissue. Reality is much more complicated, as I noted in a post yesterday where I referred to comments from some of the women Dr. Tiller treated.
Abortion is not a happy outcome, it is a not a desired outcome. I don’t think any young girl sits around and says to herself “gee, I hope I have an abortion someday”. One thing that I hope we can agree on is making contraception available–I am very glad that you agree with Alice on that. As noted, I plan to write about this soon, as I believe this is one area where we can find common ground.
Thanks for explaining your comment–I am very glad you did not mean that seriously.
Such an flowery feel good speech that says nothing. Umm, where have I heard that on the political landscape? Lets try this, %u201CI think it is very important for supposedly responsible leaders to condemn this type of speech supporting abortion. Justice Holmes noted that the best response to free speech you disagree with is counterspeech. In this case, I think responsible Democratic elected officials, if they truly are responsible people, have a duty to disclaim the incendiary rhetoric from their party platform and to make clear that it is over the line to say abortion is not killing and to call doctors who perform abortions mass killers. There is a way to change the way the abortion debate plays out, and the Democratic party has a responsibility to speak out, given the fact that it has helped mainstream the radical pro-abortion movement%u201D .
You still will not answer if your even killing something during an abortion. Why is that?
Antoin, I have responded to this point in very clear terms. I’m not going to repeat myself.
When you changed my words, what you ended up with makes no sense.
You are correct- My parody of your words make no sense because the original didn’t either. I’ll tell you though, this conversation has given me an epiphany. If the Rights so called rhetoric stops other Doctors from routinely committing killings for a non-medical especially late term%u2014GREAT! Following is another perspective on the issue which definitely rings true:
By Bill O’Reilly
Wednesday, June 3, 2009
The liberal outcry over the murder of Kansas late-term abortion doctor George Tiller demonstrates exactly where American discourse is going. Shot dead in a church by an anti-government militant, Tiller did not deserve his fate. Even though the man destroyed an estimated 60,000 fetuses that could have lived outside the womb, he was an American citizen entitled to protection. No matter what you think about abortion, it is a sad day for the country when vigilantism takes a life.
It took just minutes after the report of Tiller’s murder for the far-left loons to hit the websites. Postings on the Daily Kos and The Huffington Post immediately blamed me and Fox News for inciting Tiller’s killer. Even though I reported on the doctor honestly, the loons asserted that my analysis of him was “hateful.”
Chief of among the complaints was the doctor’s nickname, “Tiller the baby killer.” Some pro-lifers branded him with that, and I reported it. So did hundreds of other news sources. But the bigger picture here is the glorification of Tiller.
The ?ber-liberal New York Times led the way, editorializing, “For his principled devotion to women’s health and constitutionally protected rights, Dr. Tiller was the target of protests at his clinic, his house and his church.”
The Times made Tiller out to be a hero. The paper’s editorial never mentioned that he aborted fetuses after 21 weeks when they could live outside the mother’s womb. The Times opinion also did not mention that Tiller became a millionaire doing this, or that only three late-term abortion clinics exist in the entire country. Nor did the editorial writer put forth that 36 states restrict late-term abortions without violating the Constitution.
As usual, the New York Times editorial page failed to tell its readers the whole story.
But that was nothing compared to NBC News, which went full tilt in blaming pundits for the death of Tiller. NBC anchorman Brian Williams led that charge, overseeing a report that emphasized the verbal criticism of Tiller rather than the militancy of the person who shot him. NBC pundits filled the night with slanderous wails against those who opposed the deadly practice of Dr. Tiller.
But behind all the bluster was a well thought out, coordinated campaign. By exploiting the death of Tiller, the far-left is seeking to silence Americans who are appalled by late-term abortion. By demonizing people like me who believe that terminating viable fetuses must only be done when there are catastrophic health ramifications, the pro-abortion zealots are trying to inhibit dissent on the abortion issue in general.
That’s the same tactic in play on gay marriage: oppose it, and you’re a homophobe. The far left well understands the media will pick up the demonizing tactics and shove them down the throats of the American people.
The debate in America is no longer about rational points-of-view. It is now about the strategy of destruction. The murder of Doctor Tiller, as misguided as he was, can never be condoned.
But neither can the hateful, dishonest tactics of the far left.
Antoin, your response is little more than playground retort, along the lines of “I know you are, but what am I”
Ah, Bill O’Reilly. The man who referred to Dr. Tiller as a “baby killer” and “murderer” running a “death mill”. O’Reilly said Tiller was “executing babies”. That’s way, way, way over the line–O’Reilly slandered a decent man and made incredibly irresponsible accusations that provided a rationale for someone who wanted to murder Tiller.
You once strenuously insisted that you did not equate abortion with murder (it was “sanctioned killing”, you insisted, and you claimed that was an important distinction), and now you are endorsing the views of Bill O’Reilly, who made just that comparison. Bill O’Reilly is a joke and I hope that I one day have the opportunity to debate him. The only thing he has going for him is that he is a bully.
Chris,
You are absolutely amazing. You can lie when the truth is staring you in the face and your doing exactly what O%u2019Reilly accuses the left of. You slander him with statements that you have never heard him say much less document them. I dare say this piece is the only time you%u2019ve ever listened much less read anything from him. . You debate him? Only in your dreams would you even stand a chance. Your positions are so false and self serving you%u2019d be embarrassed. .
you’re probably right, O’Reilly is well known as a towering intellect
I think this has gotten fruitless, but I should mention that when you call someone a liar, you’d better back it up with hard evidence–merely throwing the word around is ineffective and hurts your credibility
Your obstification is absolutely without peer. I have to back up my facts! I did call you a liar because you are. I presented evidence to you that showed O%u2019Reilly never said what you accuse him of and you ask me to present evidence of a negative? Once again you are challenged to provide proof of you malicious and slanderous statements and you can%u2019t. Rather than admit you overstepped your with you statement you attack and belittle. Yes this is fruitless as you have consistently proven - you lie at will and evade answering honest questions that will pin you down. If this is what Liberalism, Progressivism, or Socialism or whatever your calling yourself - the truth will get you%u2014hopefully before you get to much power.
I don’t think obstification is a word.
yeah, you have to back up your unsupported assertions when you call me a liar. simply saying “I’m calling you a liar because you are one” doesn’t cut it. when I said O’Reilly had slandered Dr. Tiller, I gave specific examples, as you’ll see above. that’s the difference between name calling and backing up assertions with evidence.
sorry, by the way, every specific word I attributed to O’Reilly–that he referred to Tiller a “baby killer” and “murderer” running a “death mill”, that he was “executing babies” is a direct quote. O’Reilly doesn’t deny any of this, he just objects to those who suggest he bears some responsibility for Tiller’ death. The O’Reilly piece you pasted in didn’t respond to what I wrote and did not deny any of the quotes I excerpted–in fact, O’Reilly stand by them in the piece you refer to, saying he was merely reporting honestly on Dr. Tiller. I didn’t say O’Reilly was responsible for Tiller’s death–in any event, that’s a matter of opinion. What I said is that O’Reilly provided a rationale for someone who wanted to kill Tiller. That’s also a matter of opinion, but calling me a liar for quoting what O’Reilly said about Tiller is a mistake
As a matter of fact O’Reilly did deny that he said the things you accuse him of.It is unbelievable how you can cling to a position that is totally false with not one shred of evidence. Give me the credible quote you have! You can’t because it doesn’t exist, yet, you continue. Give me the quote and I’ll shut up. Otherwise, all your doing is following Goebbels line of tell a lie often enough and it will become truth. Congratulations , you have sunk pretty low.
On his November 6, 2006 show O’Reilly said he had medical records showing Tiller was “executing” babies. O’Reilly also claimed that Tiller “will execute babies for $5,000 if the mother is depressed”. O’Reilly described Tiller as “killer, murderer”. It’s all here:
http://www.newshounds.us/2009/03/28/bill_oreillys_culture_war_attack_m achine_failed_dr_george_tiller_acquitted_despite_bills_incontrovertibl e_evidence.php
here’s another link: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller/
what’d you think I did, made these specific quotes up out of thin air? As I said, O’Reilly doesn’t dispute any of it–look at the piece you posted above. He just says he was doing honest reporting.
it’s really easy to confirm these quotes with simple google searches Antoin. On his November 6, 2006 show O’Reilly said he had medical records showing Tiller was “executing” babies. O’Reilly also claimed that Tiller “will execute babies for $5,000 if the mother is depressed”. O’Reilly described Tiller as “killer, murderer”. it’s all over the place, but one site that documents this is http://www.newshounds.us/2009/03/28/bill_oreillys_culture_war_attack_m achine_failed_dr_george_tiller_acquitted_despite_bills_incontrovertibl e_evidence.php
what do you think I did, made these specific quotes up out of thin air? As I said, O’Reilly doesn’t dispute any of it–look at the piece you posted above. He just says he was doing honest reporting.
if you bother to go to the link I dutifully provided, you’ll see that this link, in turn, provides links that take you directly to Fox News and transcripts from O’Reilly’s show.
Once again you misrepresent the truth and parse words to meet your own twisted agenda. You wonder why people question your facts. Yes, I do think you make things up and here is the proof using your own sources that I did bother to check out:
1.%u201CFor more than a year, “The Factor” has been investigating Dr. George Tiller of Kansas. For $5000, “Tiller the Baby Killer,” as some call him, will perform a late-term abortion for just about any reason.%u201D Notice he reported %u201Cas some call him%u201D. That%u2019s reporting a fact not O%u2019Reilly calling him that. By your standards of truth you can be accused of that yourself for using the inflammatory speech.
2.%u201CThis man, Dr. George Tiller, known as %u201CTiller the baby killer,%u201D is performing late term abortions without defining the specific medical reasons why.%u201D Notice the known as? Again he%u2019s reporting a fact. I guess you endorse false reporting to keep from putting a bad light on your cause.
3. %u201CLet’s be more blunt. Tiller is executing fetuses in his Wichita clinic for $5,000. And records show he’ll do it for vague medical reasons. That is, he’ll kill the fetus, viable outside the womb, if the mother wants it dead. No danger to the mother’s life, no catastrophic damage if the woman delivers.%u201D This is the most inflammatory statement I can find in your provided sources. Nothing here even comes close to the rants you attribute to O%u2019Reilly. You may not like what he said here but what is untrue? Again, do you endorse false reporting?
Yes, I did go to your sources feeling that maybe I made a mistake. Do you not feel at least a little humiliated for propagandizing and lying to advance a heinous agenda?
Something is wrong with this country (you are epitomizing it) when murders like Tiller and yesterdays shooting at Holocaust Memorial are elevated to national prominence when it meets the lefts agenda. While both are bad, look at the lack of attention given to the massacre of Jewish women in Seattle (several of which were pregnant), the rampage in San Francisco where an individual used a car to kill several people throughout the city, shootings in a Tenn. mall, the Washington sniper and more recently the Recruiter gunned down - all by Muslim Jihadists here in the Unite States. Explain to me why these murders don%u2019t excite the lefts fervor as much as Tiller and Holocaust. In both cases these clowns were White Supremacist and somehow in the Lefts way of thinking these two crimes are much more heinous than all of the domestic Jihadists combined. Kind of sick %u2013isn%u2019t it. Maybe even a little anti semetic.
hey, Antoin, I’m thru here–you’re not a man of your word
You poor prissy hypocrite. Your proved wrong using your own sources and you use the typical petulant response of %u201CI%u2019m thru here%u201D. I%u2019m going to take my ball home and go cry. Well go, lock the door and do some soul searching. You need to figure out why you twist facts, lie and then feel you are wronged when it%u2019s pointed out. Maybe it%u2019s a psychological defect.