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Time to waterboard Dr. Tiller’s alleged murderer? |
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The man charged with murdering Dr. Tiller says that he “know[s} there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal,” according to media reports.
This is (if Scott Roeder is telling the truth–always a problem, by the way, when a terrorist says he knows of other planned attacks) the ticking time bomb scenario that defenders of torture have warned us about. Based on their logic, we ought to torture Scott Roeder in an effort to prevent other murders.
Personally, I still oppose torture as illegal and immoral. I think we certainly ought to use police work in an effort to find out if (a) Roeder is telling the truth and (b) what these other planned actions are. But, if defenders of torture are intellectually consistent, I expect that they will be calling for the waterboarding of Scott Roeder, ASAP.
Note: after I wrote this post, I saw that someone else made a similar obsevation–at Hanlon’s Razor. In the words of one tired, over-used cliche, great minds think alike (?)
Complementary to “great minds think… ” is “fools seldom differ.”
yes, it’s just a dumb cliche…I just couldn’t think of anything else to say there…
Let me see Chris– You support the killing of the unborn, oppose waterboarding to save lives and probably oppose capital punishment. You have a twisted set of values that has to be tough to sleep with.
Antoin, I have explained this before. First, I don’t think abortion is about “killing” anyone. I do think it is about women having the right to make decisions that can save their lives, protect their health, and control their own bodies. On waterboarding, there is no evidence that it saves lives–plus, it is illegal. If you believe it is necessary, the first thing you need to do is change the law.
My “twisted set of values” is based on respect for the United States Constitution and the rule of law. To paraphrase a quote from Animal House, you can attack me all you want, but I won’t stand by while you attack the United States of America. In complete seriousness though, that really is where my “twisted values” come from. If you support waterboarding, you should confront the fact that you support criminal violation of the law. I oppose it both because it is illegal and because it is immoral.
Let me see Chris- You support the Right for Women to choose what happens her body, especially in cases of Rape or Incest, oppose water boarding because it’s torture, and probably oppose capitol punishment because it’s been proven that it has no effect on crime. You have a progressive set of values that has to be making it hard for the right wing eliminationists to sleep an night.
Cool.
WRT the murder of Dr. Tiller, it seems to me that this was both a Hate Crime, and Domestic Terrorism. I think life without possibility of parole would be appropriate. That way the killer can spend the next 30 or 40 years in a small sell just waiting to die so he can be buried in a nice common grave marked only with his, and dozens of other, inmate numbers.
thanks James–and yes, I agree on sentencing the person who murdered Dr. Tiller. I do not support the death penalty–and find it a paradox that people who say they are pro-life support it. All human beings, all human systems, can make mistakes. We know there have been people on death row who were wrongly convicted–DNA evidence has set a number of them free. This has convinced some states to put a moratorium on the death penalty. This is a very important factor–the risk of executing an innocent person is a prominent factor to me. In addition, I think the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment in conflict with the 8th Amendment, and I question its deterrent effect. Murder is abominable and murderers certainly deserve to be punished but I agree with Justice Thurgood Marshall and with James Dehnert that a life sentence, without parole, is the right punishment.
I should make clear, as with many of the issues I like to write about, this is not an “easy” issue. I certainly understand how someone whose loved one was murdered would want to kill the murderer. But the factors I mention above are the ones that make me come out in opposition to the death penalty.
Great point! Since Waterboarding saves lives, we ought to use it to save the lives of American citizens against all terrorists, foreign or domestic.
not sure if you’re serious or not. To be clear, I don’t think it has been proven that waterboarding saves lives. It is clearly illegal under US law and international treaties we have entered into. If you believe waterboarding is necessary, then the first thing you need to do is change the law. I will argue against you (as will many people who have direct experience with interrogation and waterboarding), but that would be the first thing a proponent of waterboarding would need to do, unless you take the position that Dick Cheney seems to take that the president may choose to break the law when he/she deems it appropriate to do so.
I’ll tell ya what really got to me. The number of people who responded to our facetious suggestion with anger that we’d want to waterboard an American but not a “terrorist”. Oy.
thanks for commenting Hanlon. I think, of course, that this is part of the point. people assume all detainees at Guantanamo are terrorists (even though the Bush admin released hundreds who were deemed to pose no threat). I don’t support waterboarding anyone, but one overarching question is: how do we make sure the people we are detaining are actually terrorists? That’s one of the big reasons why there should be trials or some kind of hearing for detainees who have been held for years with no hearing. Basic rule of law stuff.